Using Fan-Japanese or Not

[Tiff]

[NOTE BY ANTHY: This topic was split from the other OffTopic thread, "It annoys me when..." started by CardcaptorTakato. We're starting with Tiffu's post.]


The use of Japanese words in speech doesn't really bother me unless it's not done correctly. Some idiot IMed me a few weeks back, and the Japanese he was trying to use was just horrid. If you're going to use it...make sure you've at least researched it a bit. I don't pretend to know anything I truly don't know...I use japanese in my speech far less than I used to, but I still throw it in here or there.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

I'm not bothered by the use of it, but by the over-use of it. For instance, (and this isn't an exaggeration, this actually happened to me) when a very non-Asian person walks up to me and says, "Ohayo gozaimasu! Hajimemashita! Watashi wa Carrie desu!", I get annoyed. And when Carrie then follows with random bits of incorrect japanese in her words, it just gets worse. "WAI WAI DARSHU WA WARU! HE'S SO CUTE!" I have to ask whether she really means that he's bad, or if she means that he's cute. As long as someone doesn't use it in over-abundance or incorrectly, I'm fine with it.

There is another thing about it that irks me, however. When the aforementioned crazed-fangirls use a word and I don't know what it means, they act as if I'm stupid. I did not know what "hajimemashita" meant until a few weeks ago. I'm still not entirely sure I know what it means now. "How can you call yourself an otaku if you don't know any japanese words!?" <~~actual question from Carrie. "I don't call myself otaku. Know why? Cause when someone says 'otaku,' they're saying 'introverted freak.'"<~~actual response from ParaKisu. The way I see it is this: I can speak french. Fluently. But I'm not going to throw in random french words because I know that others can't understand me. I would like to have the same consideration given to myself.

[peachvampiress]

I have to agree with Sailorasteroid and Tiff. I think it's cute when used correctly. If it's an honest mistake (i.e. I guy accidentely saying Watashi) then it's okay (I'm sure plenty of people make mistakes when trying to speak any different language). But if it's someone trying to replace every word in a sentence with some random Japanese word they know (and pronounce/use wrong) then it kind of gets annoying, especially if you try and correct them and they get all defensive.

Ex. "Boku am going to mise to shop for yon hana."

Also, I don't get what's the big deal about calling yourself otaku. So it's an insult, so what? Many people refer to their friends and themselves using insulting words (I call my friends whores, bitch skank, dick-lock, and they call me it back. It's how we express our friendship ^_^).

Edit: Damn Para, you finished typing before me. :jigglypuff frown: I agree with you to.

[Tiff]

Also, I don't get what's the big deal about calling yourself otaku. So it's an insult, so what? Many people refer to their friends and themselves using insulting words (I call my friends whores, bitch skank, dick-lock, and they call me it back. It's how we express our friendship ^_^).

Because in japanese, it's a derogatory term. You may call your friends "whore", out of playful jest, but some cultures don't take certain words that way. If you walked up to a random stranger and said "You whore! TEE HEE", they'd probably knock you out...If you called a random japanese boy "Otaku!", they'd probably know you out, too.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

Also, I don't get what's the big deal about calling yourself otaku. So it's an insult, so what? Many people refer to their friends and themselves using insulting words (I call my friends whores, bitch skank, dick-lock, and they call me it back. It's how we express our friendship ^_^).

Because in japanese, it's a derogatory term. You may call your friends "whore", out of playful jest, but some cultures don't take certain words that way. If you walked up to a random stranger and said "You whore! TEE HEE", they'd probably knock you out...If you called a random japanese boy "Otaku!", they'd probably know you out, too.

I find it annoying when people call themselves "otaku" because of the reaction of people who really know what it means. I mean, suppose some random American went around in the the streets of Tokyo screaming "Watashi wa otaku!" It shows that that person put no research at all into their learning of the language, nor the customs of the country. And it's embarassing, because it becomes a type of standard. One of the reasons why Americans are often stygmatized as being stupid and rude is because of the many occasions like the one just mentioned.

[peachvampiress]

Tiff

Because in japanese, it's a derogatory term. You may call your friends "whore", out of playful jest, but some cultures don't take certain words that way. If you walked up to a random stranger and said "You whore! TEE HEE", they'd probably knock you out...If you called a random japanese boy "Otaku!", they'd probably know you out, too.

Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I mean just using those terms with close friends (I'm not that stupid to walk up to some random person and call them a skank ^_^; ). I mean, some fans get upset when other fans call themselves otaku. I meant to equate it with someone being upset at another person refering to themself as a bitch. Sure it's a deragatory term, but you're refering to yourself in good fun.

-_- damn I need to learn to write more cohereontly T_T.

[Tiff]

Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I mean just using those terms with close friends (I'm not that stupid to walk up to some random person and call them a skank ^_^; ). I mean, some fans get upset when other fans call themselves otaku. I meant to equate it with someone being upset at another person refering to themself as a bitch. Sure it's a deragatory term, but you're refering to yourself in good fun.

-_- damn I need to learn to write more cohereontly T_T.

Yes, but there are even some words I will not let my friends say around me or to me, becuase they offend me. Some people are simply offended by certain words. I don't like the words "Fag" or "Dyke", for my own reasons.

[Sailorasteroid]

Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I mean just using those terms with close friends (I'm not that stupid to walk up to some random person and call them a skank ^_^;). I mean, some fans get upset when other fans call themselves otaku. I meant to equate it with someone being upset at another person refering to themself as a bitch. Sure it's a deragatory term, but you're refering to yourself in good fun.

Exactly. In Japanese, "otaku" is an insult. To Americans who assume the mantle of otakuism, it's a compliment. Maybe that's a commentary on us, but if we accept it, it's our cross to bear. If I were to attempt to use the word in a Japanese setting, I probably wouldn't get the meaning right. But that probably wouldn't be the only word I'd mess up, and it probably wouldn't be the only way I insult native speakers.

If it's an honest mistake (i.e. I guy accidentely saying Watashi)

Is that a mistake? I thought watashi was unisex and boku and ore were men only. (which isn't fair, if you think about it) Though, sometimes, I'll use a Japanese technique like referring to myself by name if I want to seem coy and feminine. ^_^

Parakiss: Yes, I'd imagine that misuse and overuse are annoying. I'm more wont to use Japanese as an interjection (Nani yo?!) or in reference to some particularly Japanese situation, or self-referentially as in my rant. I have yet to meet a member of the subspecies Fangirl, though. Are they really like that?

[Starscream]

See, I'm the exact opposite...unless there's no specific same-language equivalent to a foreign-language word being used in speech, I always - always - find the random interjection of foreign-language words in speech VERY annoying.

For example: I find words like "sushi", "salsa", and "croissant" acceptable because there aren't any real, common-use English equivalents in our language. However, the constant use of English in Japanese ("Prince to Princess" instead of "Ouji to Ohime"), or people tossing around in speech or fanfics ("Minna! Arigato(u)! This is SOOOOO kawaii!") causes a small vein in my forehead to throb in agony.

Now, a little bit here and there is fine (i.e., Jen and I have nicknames that use Japanese honorifics, since things like that don't have proper translations and we like how they sound :), but there are people who use Japanese words to the extend that practically every second or third word is Japanese, and it becomes QUITE difficult and annoying to listen or read (in the case of fanfics). Sadly, this is not limited to Japanese alone; there's this horrible song that played a few years back where some "clever" guy from Miami rapped in English, but to show how much Cuban he had in him, he'd throw in a Spanish word quite literally every three words or so; I wanted to take my stereo and throw it out the window.

Summary: It's fine in moderation, or when there's no other choice BUT to use the language, but I cannot stand it when two-person conversations and fanfics sound like whole anime conventions.

[Akarui Kibuno]

The way I see it is this: I can speak french. Fluently. But I'm not going to throw in random french words because I know that others can't understand me.

[OT] : Parakisu, I love you. *glomps Parakisu* I'd understand you. We have to try that >.< . [/OT]


I myself am also bothered by the "overuse" of things. And the use of things you don't know. As Tiff said, go research something before talking about it. With languages, it's even more important than any subject, because you could use a word that would be insulting someone else without even knowing it. With Japanese, I don't hear it in conversations, or, rarely, but it's never over-used as far as I've heard. I must be lucky.

The most over-use I've seen is in fanfics, where stories based upon anime use Japanese thrown in as if everyone knew what it meant. I mean, "Konnichiwa" is okay, but whole sentences o.O... ouch. ^^;;

[LadyFlameSniper]

Yeah it gets annoying when people CONSTANTLY throw in random Japanese phrases in sentences. Well any foreign language, but I'm saying Japanese here since it's the subject. It's not necessary most of the time. Althpough there are exceptions such as a loan word like karaoke or sushi, as Starscream said. And many people don't even use the words in the correct context, which is even worse.

Also why anyone would want to call themselves an otaku is beyond me. Even in America.. a lot of Americans into anime and stuff will also think "introverted freak" To anyone who doesn't know- basically it's someone so obsessed with a hobby (could be anything) that they hardly ever leave the house. Their hobby pretty much consumes them. That's why the other meaning of otaku is house. Tell someone ..especially a Japanese person that you're an otaku and they'll probably laugh at you. Call a Japanese person an otaku and they'd want to kick your ass. I'm tired of seeing people who aren't into anime.. hell even some of the ones who are assuming that ALL anime fans are this way.. (people overly obsessed with their hobby who never go out), because they're not.

Is that a mistake? I thought watashi was unisex and boku and ore were men only. (which isn't fair, if you think about it) Though, sometimes, I'll use a Japanese technique like referring to myself by name if I want to seem coy and feminine. ^_^

Watashi is normally only used for females. Atashi is feminine too but it makes you sound more passive. Men can use watashi but it's not common and rather feminine. Normally men use boku, and if I remember correctly ore is more informal.

[Tiff]

Starscream: You said EXACTLY what I was trying to say ^^;; Like..I'll call derek "Derekchan", but I don't walk around going "oh my god, so KAWAII! Wai, Watashi Tiffu, I am very atsui (sp? See, I don't even know how to spell most japanese words) cuz it's summer!" That just sounds STUPID. I have a .."friend"..who throws words like that into her speech simply because she's taking Japanese classes and thinks it makes her sound all educated. She just sounds idiotic, becuase 90% of the time, nobody can understand her (including myself) and we just go "*blink-blink* uh......kay."

[Sailorasteroid]

For example: I find words like "sushi", "salsa", and "croissant" acceptable because there aren't any real, common-use English equivalents in our language. However, the constant use of English in Japanese ("Prince to Princess" instead of "Ouji to Ohime"), or people tossing around in speech or fanfics ("Minna! Arigato(u)! This is SOOOOO kawaii!") causes a small vein in my forehead to throb in agony.

And again here, I find it better to hear those words said in tribute to their original languages, as opposed to bastardized. I have no compunction about ordering a "kwah-sohn_" (other than the carbohydrate content ^_^). My forehead-vein-throb comes when, for example, watching the movie Monsters Inc., I hear Jennifer Tilly yelling to Billy Crystal, "Soo-shee!? Soo-shee!? You think this is about soo-shee!?"

Summary: It's fine in moderation, or when there's no other choice BUT to use the language, but I cannot stand it when two-person conversations and fanfics sound like whole anime conventions.

And guess what: I take no annoyance at all at this kind of disagreement, because you say "I." I cannot stand, I find acceptable, etc. You don't invalidate me for doing it; you don't claim to be the moral arbiter of my speech patterns. Some people aren't so charitable.

Also why anyone would want to call themselves an otaku is beyond me. Even in America.. a lot of Americans into anime and stuff will also think "introverted freak" To anyone who doesn't know- basically it's someone so obsessed with a hobby (could be anything) that they hardly ever leave the house. Their hobby pretty much consumes them. That's why the other meaning of otaku is house.

That's the dictionary definition, but it's come to mean in America someone who is simply highly knowledgeble because of his fandom, whether or not it consumes his life. We can reflect on the irony of the misuse of a Japanese word to refer to people knowledgeble about a segment of Japanese culture, but it's the word we have. If someone can think of a word that covers the meaning of "obsessed fan who still maintains a grip on reality," and does so with a positive connotation, I'll be grateful and happy to use it.

Watashi is normally only used for females. Atashi is feminine too but it makes you sound more passive. Men can use watashi but it's not common and rather feminine. Normally men use boku, and if I remember correctly ore is more informal.

It's odd though, because in two classrooms, two textbooks, and a few Internet tutorials, atashi and watashi are given in the early lessons as the words to use. Boku is covered sparingly and ore almost never. (I read that ore is actually *more* formal that the other words; it's this kind of confusion that's proves the "don't overuse" point.)

[Starscream]

For example: I find words like "sushi", "salsa", and "croissant" acceptable because there aren't any real, common-use English equivalents in our language. However, the constant use of English in Japanese ("Prince to Princess" instead of "Ouji to Ohime"), or people tossing around in speech or fanfics ("Minna! Arigato(u)! This is SOOOOO kawaii!") causes a small vein in my forehead to throb in agony.

And again here, I find it better to hear those words said in tribute to their original languages, as opposed to bastardized. I have no compunction about ordering a "kwah-sohn_" (other than the carbohydrate content ^_^). My forehead-vein-throb comes when, for example, watching the movie Monsters Inc., I hear Jennifer Tilly yelling to Billy Crystal, "Soo-shee!? Soo-shee!? You think this is about soo-shee!?"

Amen. It's fine if you need to use the word (Hell, I'd rather say "sushi" than "raw fish wrapped in rice", or "salsa" as opposed to "dressing made up of tomatos, peppers, onions, etc.), but at least TRY to pronounce it right.

[LadyFlameSniper]

That's the dictionary definition, but it's come to mean in America someone who is simply highly knowledgeble because of his fandom, whether or not it consumes his life. We can reflect on the irony of the misuse of a Japanese word to refer to people knowledgeble about a segment of Japanese culture, but it's the word we have.

I'm saying a lot of anime fans here in America still see it as a the Japanese definition. Many of the ones who do call themselves otaku don't know where the word really came from. *shrugs* I was just explaining why I don't like the term.

It's odd though, because in two classrooms, two textbooks, and a few Internet tutorials, atashi and watashi are given in the early lessons as the words to use. Boku is covered sparingly and ore almost never. (I read that ore is actually *more* formal that the other words; it's this kind of confusion that's proves the "don't overuse" point.)

I took Japanese last year and I'm positive my Japanese teacher explained that women normally use watashi and atashi is feminine too. But the latter isn't used as often. She also said she didn't like atashi because it has a more submissive connotation. I wasn't sure on the other difference between boku and ore. Only that it's normally men who use them. My Japanese said she used to use boku when she was a kid because she was a tomboy. lol You could be right about ore being more formal.

[peachvampiress]

LadyFlameSniper

I took Japanese last year and I'm positive my Japanese teacher explained that women normally use watashi and atashi is feminine too. But the latter isn't used as often. She also said she didn't like atashi because it has a more submissive connotation. I wasn't sure on the other difference between boku and ore. Only that it's normally men who use them. My Japanese said she used to use boku when she was a kid because she was a tomboy. lol You could be right about ore being more formal.

0__o My text book didn't even mention atashi. It said that watashi is for girls, and boku is for boys. Eh, oh well, blame it on lack of consistancy ^_^.

[Sailorasteroid]

I'm saying a lot of anime fans here in America still see it as a the Japanese definition. Many of the ones who do call themselves otaku don't know where the word really came from. *shrugs* I was just explaining why I don't like the term.

OK, I can see that, but whether out of intent or ignorance, it's losing its stigma. It's kind of like The Mischevous Dog

It's odd though, because in two classrooms, two textbooks, and a few Internet tutorials, atashi and watashi are given in the early lessons as the words to use.

Sadly, I can't bring my old teachers here, or find my old textbooks -_^ but I can cite the Internet tutorials: here, here, and this site, which calls watashi "polite for males, normal for females"

[RoastedTwinkies]

I quite agree. It doesn't really bother me when people throw in the odd Japanese word because I can understand since I'm taking Japanese classes. However, I do understand how it can sound stupid to people who can't speak Japanese. It DOES bother me when people use the words out of context.

[doodlebuguk]

I agree, it's kind of annoying when people use a japanese word in a conversation to sound cool when an english word would fit just as well. And usually they get the meaning wrong anyway. I don't mind if they are trying but when they just do it to be cool that's what bugs me.

A little thing I find kind of cute is when people make up words using japanese words. For example, people who add 'ness' to the end of a word, like 'kawaiiness' or 'genkiness.' It doesn't annoy me but I think it sounds so sweet, and it sort of fits in with this 'using japanese words in conversation' discussion.

Off topic, but about the watashi/atashi thing, from what I can gather atashi is more of a friendly word for 'I' that you would use when talking with your friends in informal situations, watashi is used for more formal situations, or when talking to someone who is older than you. I'm not sure about boku and ore, though.

I saw earlier you were talking about working in retail, and that reminded me of the biggest thing that ticks me off. I work in a cafe at a supermarket and just because I'm 16 and 'the Saturday girl' for some reason it gives the customers permission to treat me like crap and give me no respect. I understand that a few teenagers don't care about their jobs but most of us are trying to work hard. But the thingy customers say to me they would NEVER say to the older ladies that work there.

[Anthy]

Okay, we're getting really far into this "using Japanese in conversation" topic, and no one's really posting about anything else that annoys them, so I'm going to split it into a new topic.

My opinion about using Japanese in conversations can be related to cows--if a cow (our anime fan) were to 'moo' amongst other cows, the cows would understand. If a cow were to 'moo' at a human (our non-anime fan), the cow's message in the 'moo' would be lost. So, if the cow wanted to ask for food, the cow would say 'food' to the human, and we're saying that the cow can speak English to the English farmer, to get food.

Just like I don't write a book report in l33t ("2 |<1LL 4 |\/|0kk1ngb1rd 15 4 kl4551k n0\/3L 0f d15kr1m1n4t10n...") if I wanted to be taken seriously, I don't use Japanese phrases in English speech unless it's an Anglocized term ("sumo"), or if I'm talking with other anime fans and I use something recognizable, like "kawaii" or "Ginzuishou" in a SM forum. That's my own rule, and I think it's a pretty fair one.

And yes, Sailorasteroid, some fangirls are like what Parakiss described. I myself was one: I once put "baka" in a story I had to write for a 7th grade Literature course, for example. Now I limit it to calling people "Tiffu-chan" or whatever.