The American School System

[Sailorasteroid]

With so many school-aged people here, and so many topics that touch one way or another on school life, I wanted to give some of my opinions on the American public school system. I think the whole system is massively flawed both in its educational and its social goals, and the inherent flaws are a major cause of the problems of American children.

Educationally, our schools are still based on the premise that the Soviets have launched Sputnik and we need to beat them to the Moon and build bigger missiles, an idea at least ten years out of date. We emphasize the methods of mathematics and science, even in subjects where they have no relavence. Math and science are yes-or-no disciplines. There are clear-cut right and wrong answers to just about everything. This method makes things easy on educators. If the students aren't able to produce the right answer, teach it to them and you've done your job. But applying this method to history or literature which are subjects of ambiguity does a disservice to both the students and the subject.

I was taught in my high school how to write 1000-word essays and say nothing. It begins in grade school, where students are assigned "book reports." These basically involve rewriting the book in the student's own words, and their main focus is to ensure the student reads the book in the first place. In high school, we start to see rudimentary attempts at essays. Students are given essay questions and told that to write the thesis of the essay, simply reverse the question into a statement. Well, isn't that easy! No need to bother the brain on the way from question to answer! That is the work of scriveners, not scholars. And the purpose of a conclusion, the students are told, is to restate the thesis. This is because essay readers are known sufferers of amnesia who are unable to remember things they read at the top of a page by the time they reach the bottom.

The problem is that if we actually expect students to come up with an idea to answer the question, some of them may come up with the wrong idea. It's a shock to learn, but some of the concepts that spring from human brains have less worth than others. But to actually examine the merits and flaws in what a student thinks involves work and ambiguity. Better to feed them question and answer together. Can you rewrite this sentence and the ones from the book that relate to it (which are kindly pointed out in the discussion notes)? Good, you pass.

Along the same line of thinking, nothing in history ever has multiple sides. World War II happened because some mean ol' German with a mustache didn't like the Jews, so he started conquering countries until the Good Guys of the world got together and stopped him. Kids don't need to know about American isolationism, or the fact that the US was selling arms to both sides at massive profits. With this attitude, it's no wonder that so many young people who discover politics think they've invented the concept and that people with differing opinions are enemies to be defeated instead of people who just happen to view the world differently.

In the schools today, the sudent is motivated almost exclusively by the grade. Bad grades mean angry parents and more work. Good grades mean fun times. I understand that a love of learning is not inborn in us, but the schools to nothing to foster it. And if you bring that to the students, get them to say, "I'm interested in this and I don't care about the test or the grade," then your work is 90% done. And the grades will come of their own accord. There is a misguided attempt to bring about this spirit by removing the importance of grading, but this only serves to make the students lazy and apathetic. What needs to be done is to make it impossible to get a good grade without knowing the material. No memorization of facts and formulae; the student should have to demonstrate applied knowledge. This means that not every student will be able to pass every subject. But the ones who do will have done so with elan.

If there's anything worse than the state of education in the schools, it's the state of socialization. We want to train our children for the adult world, we say. Then we stick them in a place that resembles nothing like it. In the adult world, people don't form cliques for the sole purpose of excluding others from them. In the adult world, people who insult others on the basis of gender or race or sexuality or poverty are pariahs, and people who insult others because of their clothing or hair or their looks are simply considered stupid. In the adult world, putting your hands on someone, or demanding money with the threat of violence are crimes. But in school, "kids will be kids." I'm honestly not surprised when students turn to violence in the face of violence. What rights has a student? What authority will defend them? There are no lawyers in the playgrounds.

The best thing we could do for our schools is to start classifying and specializing the students. Keep the math nerds away from the sports jocks away from the poetry writers away from the fashion plates. Give the students an education in what they like and what they're good in. Stop making everyone eat lunch together in a huge hall where individuals can get lost in the crowd.

To those of you still mired in this system, I want to say that I feel for you and that I hope you won't give up on the concept of education because you've seen a bad example of it. And I'd like to know what you all think of the problems and the solutions. Particulary, I'd like to know how those of you living outside the United States think of your education system.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

I agree with some of what you're saying, but I disagree with a lot as well. Yes, the school system is flawed in many places. But it's not all bad. I believe that math and science are things that we do need to learn, because they're used so often in the real world. I agree that we need to put emphasis on other things as well, though. I'm a senior in high school, and I know students who have trouble reading.

Also, I don't think schools should divide the students into cliques. That's something students should do themselves. We naturally split ourselves among people we connect with. That's basic human nature. And most of my friends are into different things. There's an artist, a computer whiz, a military guy, several people who don't know, and me, the language freak. If our school had split us up, we wouldn't know eachother. Also, I don't think that anyone should be forced to decide what they want to do with their life at a grade school age. I've jumped through several different ideas in the past year. I don't know how many I've thought about since 9th grade.

It's really all a matter of opinion. Some people think the school system better than others.

[lemonusagi125]

As Parakiss said, I agree with some of what is being said, but you really need to give the schools more credit. The system has some definite flaws, but I tend to think this has more to do with lack of funding for new and better teachers, and the overwhelming student population problem in some areas.

I will be the first to admit that some schools are still forced to use out of date texts and materials, but I disagree that the school systems are pushing us as hard into math and science as they were during the Cold War. If anything, that emphasis has more to do with the fact that almost all of the well-paying jobs on the markets today are math and computer related. It would be doing us a disservice to take away the push for those already unpopular subjects.

On a state level, I agree that history is taught in black and white, and thesis statements are nothing more than repetition of the question (ORQs, anybody?). But this thankfully, is why many schools have a variety of AP courses at the high school students disposal. As a student in the AP World History class, and having just finished exams mere hours ago (WoOt!), I can be the first to tell you they expect nothing more than REAL thesis statements, with REAL historical evidence and REAL writing, and if you can't link how each event was a factor, among at least five other things, to trigger another later event, then you have missed the entire picture, people! This is just for an average score, mind you. For that matter, you also learn that not only are there at least two sides for every event, theres at least three more thrown in for good measure.

On the grades, this is dead-on, but hell, any other system of evaluating what students have learned is just as flawed.

But about specializing students and letting them keep to their own pod and profession, I seriously disagree with that. College students tend to switch majors at least twice, so how can we expect high school students, and even younger, to decide what they wish to do with the rest of their lives now, then tailor their education to it? It's absurd. One: Public schools were meant to give the broadest education possible, so students could at least have a semblance of each of the major areas (science, math, history) main concepts, then decide what they wish to specialize in when they get into college. Two: if this system were to be implemented, You wouldn't be suprised to see almost all of the kids going into fashion, or acting, or sports. Whats going to happen to all of those kids who don't realize that only a minute portion of those who ever go into those professions ever hit it big? They'll be forced to go into jobs requiring menial brain skills or maximum manual labor, because their school didn't educate them with any other subject. If they really wish to specialize, there are magnet schools for that.

[peachvampiress]

While I agree that people change their mind about what type of careers they want, I wouldn't mind if they had a program that tought people just what they need. It shouldn't be forced on people, but should be available for those who do know what they want to do. Also, I think they need to be a little stricter with scholarships and such, I've seen to many lazy irresponsible people get awards when they have done nothing to diserve them. Also, this whole minority scholarships thing is a little wrong to me. Why should someone get free education just for being a different race. Scholarships should be chosen based on performance, not appearance. People shouldn't have to look at students before they give them free money and education. If I ever get rich enough, I decided I'm going to start my own scholarship, the male, cacausian fashion scholarship award. I just want to see how people would react to that (because it's a well known fact that white males are evil beings who hate everyone else )

[FoxFire]

If there's anything worse than the state of education in the schools, it's the state of socialization. We want to train our children for the adult world, we say. Then we stick them in a place that resembles nothing like it. In the adult world, people don't form cliques for the sole purpose of excluding others from them. In the adult world, people who insult others on the basis of gender or race or sexuality or poverty are pariahs, and people who insult others because of their clothing or hair or their looks are simply considered stupid. In the adult world, putting your hands on someone, or demanding money with the threat of violence are crimes. But in school, "kids will be kids." I'm honestly not surprised when students turn to violence in the face of violence. What rights has a student? What authority will defend them? There are no lawyers in the playgrounds.

The best thing we could do for our schools is to start classifying and specializing the students. Keep the math nerds away from the sports jocks away from the poetry writers away from the fashion plates. Give the students an education in what they like and what they're good in. Stop making everyone eat lunch together in a huge hall where individuals can get lost in the crowd.

I agree a lot with what you said in the first paragraph. I've heard many people say that the type of interaction that kids get in schools is to prepare them for the adult world, and I couldn't disagree more with that. If I ever found myself in a situation where I was teased and harassed on a daily basis as an adult and there was nothing that could be done about it, I would leave. I was extremely unhappy my first year of high school, and I left after that for an alternative high school, where I attended for the remainder of my high school years. I believe that teaching kids that you don't have to stay in an abusive situation and can seek out a place where you can better fit in doing what you do best is an excellent message to teach.

I would strongly disagree with forcing kids into whatever group they best belong in. Who decides what group they're forced into? What if someone is good at sports and math, or writes poetry and enjoys the latest fashion? I would argue that forcing kids into whatever clique society decides they best fit and limiting their interaction with kids who don't fit that clique is what schools already do, and that's a problem.

I do also agree with allowing kids to take more vocational training for if they have an idea of what they want to do already. I agree with peachvampiress that they should be made available but not forced. I believe that it's wrong to make every kid take the same subjects and expect them all to do well at them, and punish them if they can't telling them that this is for the good of their future. Not everybody is going to get a job that involves being good at the same subjects. Forcing someone to take a subject that they've already demonstrated that they're not good at and most likely will not seek a career involving will only hold them back.

Right now I believe that the best option is to offer more alternative or vocational schools that students can transfer to where they can have a chance to develop individually or study what they're most likely to get a job with. I don't mean private schools, but ones that must follow the same guidelines for public schools but are given more leeway with how students are taught. And repeal Bush's "No Corporation Left Behind" act that punishes the students that need to most help in the first place.

[peachvampiress]

FoxFire

And repeal Bush's "No Corporation Left Behind" act that punishes the students that need to most help in the first place.

@_@??? What's that? What does it do? Can you eat it? Is it a popular new snack? (Seriously though I don't know what it is). The cute little Candian girl doesn't stay up to date with Bushwacker's ramblings (though the cute little Canadian girl would rather listen to Bushy's drivlings than Chretien spouting idiocy out of the side of his face that still works).

[DreamEmpress]

I've been out of the school system for about 6 years now. However, I did have my opinions on what could be changed or done differently to help students.

What always made me sad was sitting through classes where the teacher would have no real passion for the subject they were teaching. A lot of times in my history classes, the football coaches would be teaching. They'd show a video and have us answer the questions in the back of the chapter. Tests would be open book. I hated that. History has always been my favorite subject and I feel that if the right approach is used, it can literally come alive. In fact, most subjects can. I'm really not sure how that could be fixed, but if it could, things would click.

I've also wished that the other subjects in school could lengthened. Like having a class that dealt with animation. I mean, the art department is ceramics and painting, but what if we could go into different fields. Expand the sciences and business fields. Even use them to help improve things at school more than they are now. I just think it would be fun if there was more ways to broaden your mind and get you excited about other avenues that you could take in life. I know it's just a silly wish, but i always thought it would be cool.

[Tiff]

Hrm...I'm amazed that none of you have mentionted the treatment of teachers in this school system. (If you have, and I just didn't see it, I apologize).

As a future teacher, I must say it appalls me how low on the career ladder we are placed. Our pay is laughable, for what we have to do. We have to be counselors, psychologists, doctors, mothers, fathers, siblings, nurses, coaches, and disciplinarians all before we can actually TEACH. And yet...people like actors and football players make millions a year, simply for preforming or playing a game. I'm sorry, but a child's LIFE and future are in my hands...and yet I'll only get paid 25,000 dollars a year for it. If I'm lucky. Don't get me wrong...there are many wonderful, beautiful rewards for teaching..but we have to live too, folks.

Then there are the many, many standards. There are national standards, then state standards, and then the ISD's standards...They all have to be met and recorded, and it leaves very little to the imagination as to how to plan your lesson. Then there are the many modifications that have to be made for special education, english as a second language, children with behavior problems, children with problems such as dyslexia that don't QUALIFY for special ed., but need extra help, too...The list goes on. For example...the state of Texas requires 90 minutes of language arts a day in elementary school. Ninety freakin minutes. Language arts is very important..but so is math, science and history. In the class I interned, we did NO history, and barely any math. Science was rare. And then they wonder, come test time, why these kids can't count to twenty, or don't know who George Washington is.

Then we have the wonderful, wonderful parents -_- The parents that you never see the entire year, until you make a mistake and they come running, ready to chew you out. Teachers have to be perfect, have to make sure all of their shit is in order. And god help you if you hug a child the wrong way...becuase then you'll be accused of child molestation. And asking a parent to take their child to the doctor becuase they have pinkeye? Nope. We can tell them to take the home, but they have to make the decision to take them to the doctor.

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that many times, teachers are often blamed for the problems sailorasteroid and others have listed above. (Note: I'm not saying any of YOU are guilty of this..simply that it happens far too often). A lot of these people don't step back and think for a moment that we're simply doing what we're told. I'd love to be able to embrace a child that's being bullied, and make sure he or she finds friends with the same interest. I would love being able to teach what I feel is important, and not what the state demands. If it were up to me, students would be immersed in books, art, music, hands-on scientific experiments, and history...But it's not up to me, or any other teacher, for that matter.

And it's a damn shame.

[peachvampiress]

Tiff you seem like the kind of person who will be/is very passionate about your job and enjoys it. There are many teachers who love teaching and give such a positive impact on children (I know, I've met many and one who changed my life). But there are people who become teachers and do very little and bitch about everything (again, I know I've met met real bastard "teachers") and I think that they're the ones who give teachers a bad name. I can't even imagine how irritating teaching must get sometimes, but they still continue to come in. I can remember this one good quote from one of the first episodes of Boston Public about teaching, I'll have to go find it.

I'm sure you'll be a loveable, energetic teacher Tiff, hell, I'd love to have you as my teacher.

[Tiff]

Tiff you seem like the kind of person who will be/is very passionate about your job and enjoys it. There are many teachers who love teaching and give such a positive impact on children (I know, I've met many and one who changed my life). But there are people who become teachers and do very little and bitch about everything (again, I know I've met met real bastard "teachers") and I think that they're the ones who give teachers a bad name. I can't even imagine how irritating teaching must get sometimes, but they still continue to come in. I can remember this one good quote from one of the first episodes of Boston Public about teaching, I'll have to go find it.

I'm sure you'll be a loveable, energetic teacher Tiff, hell, I'd love to have you as my teacher.

Thank you. I am very passionate about what I will be doing, and I know exaclty the kinds of teachers you mean. Most of them are either burnt out (which is easy to happen, with the way teaching is going nowadays), or were misinformed abuot what kind of job they'd have. A lot of people teach becuase they think they'll have vacations all the time, and that it will be as easy as babysitting. They get a rude awakening when they see how tough it is, and how those vacations are generally filled with workshops, workdays, and paperwork that needs to be caught up on.

[Chibi Son Gokou]

I think it all really has to do with a lack of funding. Americans are more generally interested in sports and pop culture instead of things such as philosophy and mathematics. I only know a handful out of a hell of a lot of people who actually say "I like math". Most people hate it, and the people who do hate it are usually in remedial math classes in college. But I think government should care about education a lot more than they do now because who is going to run our major corporations in the future? How come a lot of tech jobs are being replaced by people from India? Both sides; liberal and conservative; are in the wrong. Conservatives usually care more about big businesses and going off fighting wars in some foreign nation we really have no business belonging in, and they think that standardized test scores matter most. Liberals try to make everything too PC by letting idiots graduate from HS even if they don't deserve it, and it has gotten to the point where teachers can't correct a student's grammar because it would hurt that student's feelings (true story!). Plus, history class is not much of a history class because of all the PCness. Instead of talking about real history, they focus more on how much minorities were helpless victims to their white counterparts. I had a couple of teachers for HONORS courses mind you that dumbed down the class so everyone could pass because there were a few idiots who just messed around in there, when those idiots shouldn't have been in the honors course in the first place. Luckly, they don't pull that crap on you in college, especially at a private university.

[Sailorasteroid]

Several people have disagreed with my contention that students in school should be grouped and separated, so let me defend. If we agree that the school system is a false representation of the adult world, I'm saying that forced interaction is one of the falshehoods. As an adult, a group you don't like is a group you don't have to associate with. If I, as a somewhat well-read computer nerd think that people who play sports and talk about their bodies and physical activities all the time are boring and not for me, odds are I'm not going to have any friends of that type, and odds are they're not going to have friends like me. It's not a hard and fast fule, but it's a general principle. In schools, we put everyone together in phy ed and expect them to be able to interact. Then we put everyone together in an academic class and expect them to do group projects. It's not fair to the students who, I think, would rather concentrate on things they are good at.

Right now I believe that the best option is to offer more alternative or vocational schools that students can transfer to where they can have a chance to develop individually or study what they're most likely to get a job with. I don't mean private schools, but ones that must follow the same guidelines for public schools but are given more leeway with how students are taught. And repeal Bush's "No Corporation Left Behind" act that punishes the students that need to most help in the first place.

I agree that alternative schools are probably the easiest way to effect reform, but I think privatization is a good idea. I'm not fully cognizant with the No Child Left Behind laws, but in general I think it is more important to help children who are genuinely trying for an education to become excellent than it is to help children who are not trying to become average.

Tiff's point about teachers having too many responsibilities is well taken. I'd like to see some of them relieved. But I think the teachers-to-entertainers comparison is an apples-to-oranges one. Entertainers perform for millions of paying customers at once. Teachers teach ~thirty students at a clip, and have to be supported by tax dollars. That's one of the reasons I think privatization is a good thing--if a school knows the only way to draw students is to hire good teachers then they'll shell out the money and the benefits.

[Tiff]

Several people have disagreed with my contention that students in school should be grouped and separated, so let me defend..*EDITED FOR SPACE*... Then we put everyone together in an academic class and expect them to do group projects. It's not fair to the students who, I think, would rather concentrate on things they are good at.

You pose an excellent point, and I thikn I'm one of the first to agree with you. Students seperate themselves ANYWAY..so why not make their school experience easier and more comfortable? Also, why not have classes to prepare them for careers? You hardly ever see classes to prepare students for being lawyers, teachers, doctors, actors, dancers, musicians...usually, the only preperation classes are Cosmetology (which i've seen in two of the three high schools I attended), home economics, or sports. Not everyone is going to be a hairdresser, housewife, or football player.
Let the computer geeks have class together. Let the athletes have class together, since they all get special privledges and travel in packs ANYWAY. Let the STUDENTS chose..after all, it IS their education, isn't it?

[peachvampiress]

Me

I can remember this one good quote from one of the first episodes of Boston Public about teaching, I'll have to go find it.

Well I did find it.

Let me tell you something. Let me tell all of you something. The reason I'd had it, is because I have to go into a room day after day after damn day, and try to break through to a bunch of kids who don't want to listen, don't want to learn, and don't wanna give me the decency of being quiet. Harry Senate shot off a gun. I woulda rolled in a big cannon if I knew where to get one. I woulda tried anything. And you show me a teacher who doesn't almost lose his or her mind sometimes, and I'll show you a teacher who's not trying.
I can show you some parents who aren't. You send them to school thinking, "Job's done. It's up to the teachers now." Well, it doesn't work that way. You gotta get in this, too. Kids coming every day, singing that jingle, "Those who can't do, teach." They get that from their parents! I know what you think of us. Well let me tell you, we're in there doing every damn day. And a lot of the doing we do is parenting! You wanna compare failures? Step right up! Who's first?

Enjoy.

[yoshmaster5]

Oh man... I could go ON and ON about this... "No Child Left Behind"
It just fires teachers that sadly have students that don't give a shit about their education. Also, what if kids CAN'T take the tests, like if they are mentally retarded? Is it fair then? NO. *rants for about another hour*

okay, I'm done.

[peachvampiress]

yoshmaster5

Oh man... I could go ON and ON about this... "No Child Left Behind"
It just fires teachers that sadly have students that don't give a shit about their education. Also, what if kids CAN'T take the tests, like if they are mentally retarded? Is it fair then? NO. *rants for about another hour*

okay, I'm done.

Please, someone fill me in. What is this act that people keep bringing up, what does it mean? I'm completely lost here @_@.

[lemonusagi125]

I agree on all points said about teachers. There are so many teachers who work their ASSES off, and it sure as hell isn't because of the money. They do more in a day and put up with much more than most people could do in a week. Honestly, my world history teacher didn't have to stay for a solid two hours, at least, every day after school for two months just to help us prepare for exams. She did it because she wanted us to suceed, and she was passionate about her job, she didn't see an extra dime. Those few teachers who really know what they're doing is what makes going to school worthwhile for some of us. ( and Tiff, I know I'm a newbie and it might not be my place, but you sound like you will make a wonderful teacher, and any student will be lucky to have you.)

Of course, its the people who have absolutely no place in classroom that give teachers their bad names. For example, football coaches ARE NOT supposed to be teaching computers, unless they are properly qualified. I'll give you adminstrators a hint: If he knows less about the programs being used by the students, he is NOT QUALIFIED.</mini rant>

[yoshmaster5]

yoshmaster5

Oh man... I could go ON and ON about this... "No Child Left Behind"
It just fires teachers that sadly have students that don't give a shit about their education. Also, what if kids CAN'T take the tests, like if they are mentally retarded? Is it fair then? NO. *rants for about another hour*

okay, I'm done.

Please, someone fill me in. What is this act that people keep bringing up, what does it mean? I'm completely lost here @_@.

If a school's test scores do not pass a certian percent, every employee is fired. Pretty bad for those inner-city schools huh?

Tiffu: I can understand. My mom is a teacher, and I know just how hard it can be from the stories. You get the good years, and you get the bad. Bad years are when the majority of the class don't give a crap and simply threaten, goof off, and be complete jackasses. Good years, you can get very good students. That is, depending where you live, and where you work. My mom teaches elementry school, so it isn't too bad for her. plus, you don't get really bad things with teaching in Kansas so...

EDIT: My aunt Joanne and cousin Jenny are Drama Teachers. both are in MI. Aunt Joanne says that SHE pays for alot of the things she uses when teaching, I'm not sure about Jenny, but her school is MUCH better off then mine.

Also, districts need to put money into better schools. I go to school in a building that was built in 1929! it freaking sucks! Plus, with 6 total non-extracirricular classes outside, it is a major pain in the ass getting to all of them. Walking out into snow having to carry a binder, textbooks etc... is NOT fun.

[DreamEmpress]

I had plenty of great and excellent teachers growing up. Had a drama teacher who I adored. I have nothing against hard working teachers who are dedicated to helping students and love their job. I've got a lot of friends who want to go into the profession and help too. My main concern is with the others in the system. We had a science teacher once who was insane. He got into fights with students that would almost came to blows. (wrestled one kid with a broom in my class, I almost got hurt) Another teacher was so horrible that if one kid didn't answer a question right, the entire class was punished. He finally was fired when he handed a student a knife and told them to kill themself if they really weren't having a good day. (one of my best friends was taking that class and she was freaked out by that incident) It's teachers like that who make it so much harder for others. It seriously made me question the screening process. Some teachers cared, others did it because they didn't have anything else to do and others made it in for reasons we don't understand.

The pay for teachers is lousy. My english teacher in high school kept reminding us that she didn't have to do that job, but she did because she cared. I think it's positively insane how little education is cared about. Money goes into everything else except where it will do the most good.

the entire school experience isn't always pleasant, I blame the administration for some of it too. We got a principal and vice principals who acted more like prison guards. During the last half of my senior year they had us wearing IDs and then they implimented the change in class time. periods 1,3 and 5 monday/wednesday and 2,4,6 tuesday and thursday. Friday was back to all 6 classes. I felt sorry for the teachers too. Many of them didn't know what to do with us after the first hour. (Not that I blame them.) The year after I left, all my friends told me about the new principal that was hired and his policy that he tried the last two weeks of school. You were tardy once, you were suspended for a day. Tardy twice, same thing. Tardy a third time and you were exspelled. The students had to do a sit in before anyone would listen. They try a lot of these things, but they never seem to really think about the consequences.

Hopefully one day things will all balance out. I'd really like to see a school where everything actually works and the education is brought to it's fullest potiential.

[peachvampiress]

yoshmaster5

If a school's test scores do not pass a certian percent, every employee is fired. Pretty bad for those inner-city schools huh?

WTF!? Just because I bunch of lazy ass idiots are too stupid to do anything and flunk their tests, perfectly good teachers have to be fired?

Accually, I thought it was something else. "No Child Left Behind" sounds like an act that makes it so that students aren't held back if they fail (something equally stupid -_-).