Something for nothing

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:29 pm

Jed-kun wrote: Yeah, I don't think that there should be an overall discount like a "I'm a Native" card or something. But they should get sertain reparations. Like exemption from taxes, if they live as a part of the "Insert Tribe Name Here Nation", and should get to go to college for free... however, they should have to EARN the right to go to college the same as anybody else.

The only "nativer" who should get reparations, IMO, are the ones who were here when their land was actually taken, and the ones who actually WERE forced to live on reservations and controlled land. Not those whose mother's mother was during that time. Bullshit. That person wasn't there, that person has the same current rights I do. As for going to college for free? I am totally against anyone going to college for free becuase of who they are. You should earn that right.

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:47 pm

Yes, the people who had there land stolen originally are all dead now. However, there great great grandchildren still don't have that land do they. So that land is still not theres. Black people, if the really want, can go back to africa [I'm not saying they should or that what hapend was o.k.], but the "Natives" have no country to go to. So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them.

SailorBoy62 · Post by **SailorBoy62** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:13 am

How does that make it fair? It doesn't and in fact only makes it unfair for other people that America's screwed over.

Don't give me "Africans can go back to Africa" bull because they tried that. Remember Liberia? They never fully integrated back because they were third or forth generation children that were never taught the language, the culture, the essence of what it meant to be an African person. They were brought up as an African American learning white standards in a white society because that's what the slaveholders wanted. To me, that's ten times more screwed up than taking Native American land, which countries tend to do anyway.

IMO, you can't give reparations to the future generations of a certain people for things that happened over a hundred years ago because you'll never know if those lands would in fact still belong to the Native American people today had the colonists not come to America. Therefore you can't say "They don't have the land that is rightfully theres." There wasn't an established Native American nation, it wasn't a large organized country. It was scattered tribes at war. Who knows, they might have wiped each other out anyways.

Post by **Tiff** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:14 am

Jed-kun wrote:Yes, the people who had there land stolen originally are all dead now. However, there great great grandchildren still don't have that land do they. So that land is still not theres. Black people, if the really want, can go back to africa [I'm not saying they should or that what hapend was o.k.], but the "Natives" have no country to go to. So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them.

So? The land wasn't theirs (meaning the great grandchildren) to being with. It was their great great grandchildren,a nd whose to say what would have happened to that land? Also, not all black slaves were from Africa. So therefore, some of THEM can't "go back to Africa".
They aren't paying for a country by paying for education. Good education, unfortunately, is a privelidge. I work my ass off to stay in school, and my parents pay a ridiculous amount even with my scholarship. Should my dad get a discount becuase he's Mexican, and his people fought in a war to keep Texas?
I wasn't there when all that happened. Neither were half of the people that run our government, or the educators who work in colleges, or the people who own these universities. Why should they have to pay them back for something they weren't a part of?People need to let go. That's the past, and I'm tired of being told the whites have to pay for it for the rest of their lives. Come on. GET OVER IT.

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:07 am

*nods nods to Tiff*

Completely agree. One shouldn't pay for something someone has done in the past. So it would mean, if my father was from Adam, my mother from Eve, and Adam slapped Eve, all Eve's children have to get reparation because Adam slapped her ? Nah, that's too stupid.

You ger repair for something that was directly done to you. We can acknowledge that things were done to Black people, or Mexicans, or lots of people like that. It's not because that there are so many of them we can't "repair" what has been done. It's because the ones who did it in the first place aren't there anymore.

And there are some people who still discriminate. These ones should pay!

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:51 pm

Tiff wrote:
Jed-kun wrote:Yes, the people who had there land stolen originally are all dead now. However, there great great grandchildren still don't have that land do they. So that land is still not theres. Black people, if the really want, can go back to africa [I'm not saying they should or that what hapend was o.k.], but the "Natives" have no country to go to. So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them.
They aren't paying for a country by paying for education. Good education, unfortunately, is a privelidge. I work my ass off to stay in school, and my parents pay a ridiculous amount even with my scholarship. Should my dad get a discount becuase he's Mexican, and his people fought in a war to keep Texas?

I agree with you, Tiff. My family is Irish. We had our land taken from us by the british, and then we had to settle for the barren western lands, where the only succesful crop was potatoes. The Native Americans had better land than we did. Then our potatoes died, and we were forced to come to America so that we wouldn't starve to death. Yet, I'm not going and demanding "reparations" from the UK. It happened long ago, in the past. It has been taught, and seen as wrong. My demanding a free education would be wrong, and stupid. I don't deserve that free education. Besides, it really bothers me on another account. College is a really if-y topic for me, because it costs so much! And I make good grades. Very good grades. However, even with the scholarship that I may get, it's going to be hard on my family. Whereas, someone who's dumb as a rock and couldn't get into a college through grades or merit can say that they're Native American, or that their parents died in 9/11, and they can not only get into college free, but they can get into whatever college they want. Now, is this fair to me?

Offtopic: I love the award! Thank you Tiffu! You kickass too!!! *snuggles award* *glomps Tiffu* *snuggles award*

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:36 pm

1)I said that they should have to EARN their way into college.
2)I'm not entirely clear on the Irish/British thing, however, I'm pretty sure that they Brittish didn't say 'Hey, let's share the land' and then just take it all for themselves anyway.
3)Maybe African Americans "can't go back", however, their ancestores wouldn't have been slaves if it wern't for there own people. The slave traders could berely get near Africa's cost and would have died trying to get into the inland of Africa. So they payed the African people to sell other tribe's or poor people into slavery.
4) Not ALL NA tribes were at war with eachother.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:39 pm

No, the British didn't say "let's share." They said "get the hell out, biyach!" But the main point is that I don't "demand" reparations from people because of my Irish heritage. I accept what happened, and I don't hold a grudge about it. What's it gonna change, really?

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:42 pm

There's still Irish land though isn't there? I mean a whole country called Ireland.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:39 pm

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:08 pm

Exactly. I can't agree more. I don't go and say, Hey, my great-great-grandfather was Mongolian! They're shit-ass poor over there! People were killed and oppressed by the Communists! I'm so cultural! Give me discounts on taxes and college now!

No, I have a bit more pride than to claim I'm a minority just because I have some heritage from the nomad country. It really REALLY bugs me when people think they can just do absolutely nothing and deserve free shit like that, just because they're at a disadvantage, even for things like homosexuality. Just because I've got the queer going on doesn't mean I should automatically get education for less of a cost. I have to work and get good grades just like everyone else!

SailorBoy62 · Post by **SailorBoy62** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:26 pm

Jed-kun wrote: 1)I said that they should have to EARN their way into college.

Did you say that before or after you said "So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them."

3)Maybe African Americans "can't go back", however, their ancestors wouldn't have been slaves if it wern't for there own people. The slave traders could barely get near Africa's coast and would have died trying to get into the inland of Africa. So they payed the African people to sell other tribe's or poor people into slavery.

You do realize that African slaves weren't captured by "their own people." Different tribes were considered different peoples and most tribes were at war with each other. Selling a warring tribe off to slave traders was viewed as a way of getting rid of the enemy. Also, it's the American people's who went to Africa, brought them back here and said that they couldn't retain there own African culture. That's why they couldn't go back to Africa, that's why they ended up being more screwed than Native Americans who weren't exactly forced to give up their entire culture and forget their traditions or ways as Native Americans.

4) Not ALL NA tribes were at war with eachother.

But a good majority of them were fighting to gain control of the land and to become a greater tribe. The Native American people were not some great unified nation. They didn't become a unified nation until they were forced to relocate and forced by the Americans to unify in a war against the Americans.

Also, you need to remember that reservation land is technically speaking is NOT a part of the country and that the entire U.S. was NOT inhabited by Native Americans and that a good sized portion of the U.S. WAS a vast wasteland.

Post by **Tiff** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:54 pm

SailorBoy62 wrote:
Jed-kun wrote: 1)I said that they should have to EARN their way into college.
Did you say that before or after you said "So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them."

You do realize that African slaves weren't captured by "their own people." Different tribes were considered different peoples and most tribes were at war with each other. Selling a warring tribe off to slave traders was viewed as a way of getting rid of the enemy. Also, it's the American people's who went to Africa, brought them back here and said that they couldn't retain there own African culture.

Also, you need to remember that reservation land is technically speaking is NOT a part of the country and that the entire U.S. was NOT inhabited by Native Americans and that a good sized portion of the U.S. WAS a vast wasteland.

*nodsnods* Exactly. Why should a kid who earns the same grades I do, and works just as hard get to go to school for free becuase she's got 1/8th of Native American blood in her? Bullshit. And what's sick, is that there are scholarships for those kids who are 1/8th native american. All they have to do is get an average GPA, and they're in school for free. WTF. Why can't there be a "white female" scholarship, ONLY for white females? There aren't any. Becuase that would be "racist". Explain THAT to me.

And you're right about the land and the African Americans. It's not as simple as "oh, their own people enslaved them, so they're different".

Anthy and ParaKiss: I couldn't agree more. Parakiss, your Irish people were screwed over in the same way, but that's no reason to hang on to the past. (And I'm glad you love your award XD). And Anthy, I agree about pride. I have dignity, and begging for handouts becuase of my ancestors' heritage takes that pride down a notch.

The point is this: keeping things like payments, freebies, and other apologies to those who suffered in the past only succeed in hanging on to those tragedies. People need to move on. That was years and years ago. IT'S NO LONGER AN ISSUE.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:09 pm

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:23 am

SailorBoy62 wrote:Jed-kun wrote:
1)I said that they should have to EARN their way into college.

Did you say that before or after you said "So, in reparation for that land, they get certain privilages, such as a "good" free education and not having to pay for a country that has imprisoned them."

Also, you need to remember that reservation land is technically speaking is NOT a part of the country and that the entire U.S. was NOT inhabited by Native Americans and that a good sized portion of the U.S. WAS a vast wasteland.

I said "Earn" before I said "So, in...them". And I know that they were tribes, however, most poeple refuse to believe that black people did help in the slave trade OF THER OWN FREE WILL and it's kinda enoying. Yes, I do know that reservation land is technically not US soil, however, it is that crapy "vast wasteland" soil that you mentioned.

peachvampiress wrote:Except that the Americans and Canadians of today have not inslaved the Natives of today. I think that the Natives should pay taxes to a country that offers them protection, jobs, security, insurance, free public schools etc. etc.

Why should they have to pay for a country that they didn't want in the first place? That's like going to your nextdoor naighbor and saying "Ok, I'm taking over your house, but you can have the din and half the back yard. However, since the din is in the house I'll have to protect you, so you have to pay even though you didn't want or ask for this... at all."

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:49 am

Jed-kun wrote:Why should they have to pay for a country that they didn't want in the first place? That's like going to your nextdoor naighbor and saying "Ok, I'm taking over your house, but you can have the din and half the back yard. However, since the din is in the house I'll have to protect you, so you have to pay even though you didn't want or ask for this... at all."

But if you put it that way, then you can't argue with this statement. When looked at in that light, no one should have to pay taxes. Did I ask to be born? No. Did I ask for the US to protect me? No. So, why is that any different? It happened years ago. Reparations are stupid. What are they repairing, anyway? And, here's something else I've noticed. This may be a stereotype, but it is true. Most people who will proudly say "I am a Native American" do not want charity because of it. They want to work for what they get. It's lazy people, who want everything handed to them on a silver platter who say "I'm a Native American. Pay me for it!"

Post by **Tiff** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:28 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:
But if you put it that way, then you can't argue with this statement. When looked at in that light, no one should have to pay taxes. Did I ask to be born? No. Did I ask for the US to protect me? No. So, why is that any different? It happened years ago. Reparations are stupid. What are they repairing, anyway? And, here's something else I've noticed. This may be a stereotype, but it is true. Most people who will proudly say "I am a Native American" do not want charity because of it. They want to work for what they get. It's lazy people, who want everything handed to them on a silver platter who say "I'm a Native American. Pay me for it!"

*nods* Exactly. Jed-kun, so much of what you're saying is contradictory or can be applied to those who aren't native-american. I didn't choose to exist here. And I can leave whenever I want, but I choose so stay. I have the freedom to do that, just as the Native Americans now have the same freedoms and rights as everyone else: THAT is their reparations. Now they should move on and work themselves toward bettering their life, not expect the government and the american people to do it for them.

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:40 pm

You're comparing one individual to an entire culture. You don't want to be American or Canadian, then you can go live else were. However, the entire Native people don't want to be AmeriCanadian . Their people, maybe not the individuals, existed befor the AmeriCanadians took over and didn't want it then and still don't want it now.Furthermore, in America there were promises made to the Natives that we wouldn't take all there land and that they could co-exist, instead we pushed them into little reservations. Individuals were NOT made those promises.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:43 pm

Wait... You keep saying that we can go live elsewhere. Well, why can't they? If they despise it so much, then they can leave, too. But guess what would happen if they did? They wouldn't get discounts anymore. They'd just be normal people. And besides... what about the Native Americans who don't live on reservations. They chose to live there. They should be treated equally to us. After all, there people must not have had their land forcibly taken and then they must not have been forced to live on the reservation, since they don't.

Post by **Tiff** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:18 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:Wait... You keep saying that we can go live elsewhere. Well, why can't they? If they despise it so much, then they can leave, too. But guess what would happen if they did? They wouldn't get discounts anymore. They'd just be normal people. And besides... what about the Native Americans who don't live on reservations. They chose to live there. They should be treated equally to us. After all, there people must not have had their land forcibly taken and then they must not have been forced to live on the reservation, since they don't.

*nods*Exactly. They can go live elsewhere, and as I said before: THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS WE DO.

You're comparing one individual to an entire culture. You don't want to be American or Canadian, then you can go live else were. However, the entire Native people don't want to be AmeriCanadian

Then they can go somewhere else. I don't see the problem here. The present is the present, and the past cannot be changed. Nobody's labeling them as AmeriCanadian (wtf is that, anyway??). Labels only exist if people chose to keep them and live up to them. I don't call myself mexican-italian-german-american simply becuase I have blood from these places, do I? But I could if I want to. That's why Native Americans have the choice to either call THEMSELVES "AmeriCanadian" (I still don't get wtf that is) or to call themselves Native Americans or to call themselves SuperMastaFunks.

I said it once and I'll say it again: People who weren't there shouldn't have to pay for something of which they aren't apart.