God and Homosexuality and War. Or something. I don't know

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:41 am

OTF, I do know that they are two separate issues that cannot really be joined. However, my the point of them was mainly directed toward the "God is responsible for every aspect of human life" idea. It's when people say that "God" is responsible for everything that this point comes up and really makes sense. I don't believe he's responsible for, well, anything. I believe that some type of deity exists, but that they just created life, and have no influence over it after that. However, we're not gonna agree on it, so let's just move back to the real topic of legalizing gay marriages. So, without further ado...

OT: I've pretty much made my point about legalizing gay marriages, so there's no point in my repeating it.

Off-Topic (again, I know... I'm sorry!):

Apparently these freaks are a direct threat to this family. They will cause this family's destruction. If gay marriage is legalized, ALL CHILDREN EVERYWHERE WILL DIE.

Only in my dreams could gay people be directly responsible for the destruction of kids everywhere. And those are GOOD dreams! ^^

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:36 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:OTF, I do know that they are two separate issues that cannot really be joined. However, my the point of them was mainly directed toward the "God is responsible for every aspect of human life" idea.

This is an idea that no one presented though. No one suggested that God was responsible for every aspect of human life... just that God was responsible for homosexuality. It almost seems like you were creating a strawman to argue against to help prove your point.

I don't believe he's responsible for, well, anything. I believe that some type of deity exists, but that they just created life, and have no influence over it after that. However, we're not gonna agree on it, so let's just move back to the real topic of legalizing gay marriages.

A valid opinion, and on this we'll have to agree to disagree. It was your linkage of war and homosexuality as things (arguably) caused by God that I was really arguing about anyway... my opinion on the point you were actually making was kind of incidental to that.

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:55 pm

Okay let's get into the discussion. I find that interesting.

*sorry if I use too many caps in that one - and I also add that I have nothing against homosexuals, because some of my points might make you think that*

From the different arguments, I'd be understanding one thing: "God" is responsible for what people ARE but not for what people DO.

Hmm. So. God would be responsible for sick, nasty, dirty, stupid, bossy, and all those kind of people. And God wouldn't be responsible for wars, governments, art, or anything like that (since humans decided to create "art").

So, yes, we don't know if "God" does exist but it doesn't mean we can't discuss about what "could" be if he did. Hmm.

We're thinking "God" creates good. Hmm. But there are evil people. So then, it means God didn't create them but that's impossible since he created all people. Homosexuals can be good people, and can be bad, too, as any heterosexual (your sexual preference does not indicate if you're evil or not, after all).

*sees everyone's mind all messed up, and tries to clear the mess*

Hem, hem. What I mean is, what is the point we're going from ?

- If "God" created men and then let them evolve, he did not make homosexuals nor did he make men paint or sing. Things just happened.

- If "God" created men and "played" with them as with their fates and what they'd be, he could have made some of them homosexuals. Hmm.

Problem is, seeing how the world in its globality, I would choose to believe in option 1. Because, if the second point is valid, then it means God deliberately let his "work" go to waste. Then, it would mean that God is completely illogical and there would be no reason left for me to believe in him...

Back on topic after that... huh... long post, sorry

:

I spoke a little earlier about gay marriages in France. To clear things up, that was the law I was talking about, not my opinion

cause IMO, I agree with the "Marriage is for love, not necessarily for children"

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:42 pm

I think here we get into the nature vs. nurture argument - are personality traits like "nasty", "stupid" and "bossy" things that are inherent in us, or things that we develop based on society's influences on us? It may be that homosexuality is entirely or partly caused by society's influences at a young age.

Akarui Kibuno wrote:- If "God" created men and then let them evolve, he did not make homosexuals nor did he make men paint or sing. Things just happened.

- If "God" created men and "played" with them as with their fates and what they'd be, he could have made some of them homosexuals. Hmm.

Or maybe homosexuality is genetic, and was planned from the beginning? If homosexuality is an inherent characteristic, this explanation makes the most sense to me.

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:38 pm

Hmm!

(I see the topic has been splitted since we were OT so much ^^;; my apologies to the mods)

Well, this is an interesting point. But then, if homosexuality was "in the genes", it means it would be on the same scale as the color of the eyes, genetic diseases, things like that.

So it would mean even the choices we make are in our genes. Or... I'm getting confused.

I don't think it's in the genes. Nor do I think it's the influence of society and everything.

What I think is, if we see "more of them" now, it's just because society is getting a bit more free in terms of sexuality. So it might not be that there are more of them, it's just that they are more confident into telling what they feel. And now, they can choose whoever they want because no one (no intelligent and tolerant one, that is) will blame them for that. So there is no fear.

So, my point is... my point is that. I hope it's a bit clearer than the previous one ^^;;

And, to get into the "off topic topic" , this is why it's not the same as war. I think "God" didn't make people go to war: he made people, but those people went selfish, and the selfishness (spelling error here ?) led them to war.

Oh well, I think I might not have all the "thinking material" to speak more properly about the question. I'm just a small 20 years old on that big Earth after all ^^;;;

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:58 pm

Akarui Kibuno wrote:(I see the topic has been splitted since we were OT so much ^^;; my apologies to the mods)

<snip by Anthy>

What I think is, if we see "more of them" now, it's just because society is getting a bit more free in terms of sexuality. So it might not be that there are more of them, it's just that they are more confident into telling what they feel. And now, they can choose whoever they want because no one (no intelligent and tolerant one, that is) will blame them for that. So there is no fear.

Don't worry, Akarui. There were about 3 topics that were running alongside each other. This one was just the easiest to split off for me, and probably the least relevant to the original topic. Since one post could cover several issues, I did the best I could.

And I totally agree. Some claim that because of today's "loose morals" that there are more homosexuals. I highly doubt that. It's just that gays aren't in much fear of being shot, put into prison, or burned at the stake if they are openly gay.

Whatever homosexuality is, it's uncontrollable and just part of life. Whether it's from genes or God or an extra .00001 mg of estrogen in the zygote is unimportant. Let's just try to get along. ^^

I think war is natural, although horrible. Human instinct is to fight. We are not completely unlike animals. However, I think that we have the capability of overcoming the vicious instict, unlike animals.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:05 pm

Akarui Kibuno wrote:Well, this is an interesting point. But then, if homosexuality was "in the genes", it means it would be on the same scale as the color of the eyes, genetic diseases, things like that.

So it would mean even the choices we make are in our genes. Or... I'm getting confused.

It doesn't mean that. Homosexuality, eye colour and disease are not things you choose to do, so the idea that those things are genetic does not imply that the choices people make come from genetics.

The idea that choices we make could be directly caused by genetics doesn't really make much sense - obviously, the choices we make are determined at least partly by the situations we are put into in our lives, because these situations are what present us with choices to make.

The other part that determines the choices we make are our personalities, and it would make sense to say that our personalities are partly or entirely genetic.

I don't think it's in the genes. Nor do I think it's the influence of society and everything.

So, what causes homosexuality then? o.o No offence, but it has to be at least one of the two. Homosexuality can't just spring out of nowhere - unless it's a choice, which it isn't.

What I think is, if we see "more of them" now, it's just because society is getting a bit more free in terms of sexuality. So it might not be that there are more of them, it's just that they are more confident into telling what they feel. And now, they can choose whoever they want because no one (no intelligent and tolerant one, that is) will blame them for that. So there is no fear.

Agreed... but still there has to be something that causes people to be homosexual, or there wouldn't be any gay people.

So, my point is... my point is that. I hope it's a bit clearer than the previous one ^^;;

It is.

Oh well, I think I might not have all the "thinking material" to speak more properly about the question. I'm just a small 20 years old on that big Earth after all ^^;;;

Of course... there's no way any of us can claim to have all the answers

But discussing possibilities is still interesting, I think.

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:33 pm

SailorBoy62 wrote:IMO, "God" is too much of an enigma to disprove or devalidate anyone's thoughts or ideas about what he did or did not do.

The 700 Club is evil. They often like to show Asian people and how they need "help" because they didn't follow the word of "God" and are now in "hell."

they sound like that Phelps bastard.

Dear 700 club,

Do you realize that there is MORE than ONE religion in the world? if you don't, then you are complete idiots.

Yoshmaster5

THAT would be something I would say. ^_^

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:53 pm

yoshmaster5 wrote:
SailorBoy62 wrote:IMO, "God" is too much of an enigma to disprove or devalidate anyone's thoughts or ideas about what he did or did not do.

The 700 Club is evil. They often like to show Asian people and how they need "help" because they didn't follow the word of "God" and are now in "hell."
they sound like that Phelps bastard.

Dear 700 club,

Do you realize that there is MORE than ONE religion in the world? if you don't, then you are complete idiots.

Yoshmaster5

THAT would be something I would say. ^_^

And they would completely disregard your opinion. Yoshmaster, it's never a good idea to flame people. All it does is infuriate them, and they won't even consider your idea. When you send e-mails to people, it's best to be very polite in expressing your ideas.

OTF, I need to ask you a question. I'm going to try to improve my argument for other instances where I would use it. Would it sound better if instead of using war, I said something like this:

I don't like when people blame/credit "God" for anything. If he causes homosexuality, then he would also cause things such as Cystic Fibrosis, or Down Syndrome, or Parkinson's Disease. And what just, loving "God" would cause these kinds of disorders? I think that people are just born with these things, that "God" created the original people, but has little, if anything at all, to do with how people are born now.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:02 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:OTF, I need to ask you a question. I'm going to try to improve my argument for other instances where I would use it. Would it sound better if instead of using war, I said something like this:

I don't like when people blame/credit "God" for anything. If he causes homosexuality, then he would also cause things such as Cystic Fibrosis, or Down Syndrome, or Parkinson's Disease. And what just, loving "God" would cause these kinds of disorders? I think that people are just born with these things, that "God" created the original people, but has little, if anything at all, to do with how people are born now.

This makes a hell of a lot more sense. I'll reply properly tomorrow, when it's not 2am ^^

EDIT: I decided I don't really have much to say about this - especially since I have two other long posts to reply to ^^;

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:03 am

Okay.

I don't belive Kami-sama would be responsible for war, homosexuality, etc... I belive God created people, and the people's ideals became extreme over time. *hence war* What also happens, is that diseases are natural to the environment. They were here LONG before humans, and so have many other things, meaning that if Kami-sama has control over it, then there is one thing: He created these diseases to try to have humans solve the problems of these diseases. Homosexuality is something Kami has no control over. No one can control someone's likes and dislikes, nor personality or nature. This is something that is fact. I belive in God, but not that he is responsible for everything. Marrige is a combination of two persons in a common bond of love. NOT being able to have children, or then many people would marry and divorce NUMEROUS times in their life. *strays back on topic* War is caused by people themselves, and their desires. Some wars are about Economy, Freedom, and being able to become a single country. Wars about becoming a country by themselves *US from britian, the colonies in africa, etc... NOT CSA from USA* have a main reason behind it. the people want to get out of the rule and want their own country. sometimes it lasts. sometimes it dosen't. Wars about Economy aren't too good, because it would no matter what deplete the economy. Now, wars about world domination. THOSE have no main purpose, except to kill numeous people and make sure you yourself don't die. The religious wars are even worse. They don't only want their government to take control, they want their RELIGION and ideals to take control, which is much more deadly. Now the so called, "War on Terror" is fruitless. Terrorism is an idea *which I don't support* which means it can truly NEVER be destroyed. Bush dosen't realise that. he seems to think that getting into wars will just make a better chance he is re-elected *IMO*. To me, this is pointless. Terrorist groups are not good at all. In Iraq, we are being attack by Nationalists, wanting us out of the country. we are not only removing and revamping the government, we are steadily depleating their and our economy. Wars on Ideas will never be won. Wars can never be won. even if the opponent surrenders, there is still rebuilding, and the removing of bodies. PLUS, your economy would be in shambles, and there would be many depts owed. This is the situation with the US. The economy is at a record low, and is getting worse day by day. and Bush wants 85 billion dollars to Iraq. 85 billion to rebuild OUR economy. If he had to attack Iraq, he should have waited for more backup besides England. Because he basicly insulted them by saying we could do everything ourselves, and now he is begging them for money. There is no way that France, Russia, Germany would GIVE his and Dick Channey's compaines money to rebuild Iraq. Our economy needs rebuilding. The stock market is dead, there is school funds being cut every single day, as Bush seems to think teachers are evil and so are schools. *hence "No child left behind" act* Cutting money from schools and cutting taxes is not going to help. he is giving more money to the wealthy americans, he should tax them more *sorry if anyone here is extremly wealthy* and give more money to the poor/ middle class communities because they will spend the money raising the economy, as the rich would just put it in a bank account of some kind.

wait... how the HECK did I get all the way off-topic???
Meh. God is not responsible for war or Homosexuality. My opinion stated.
*gasps after extremly long post*

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:21 am

Umm... wars do help the economy. They create jobs too, look at the boom we had after WWII. And our economy is improving steadily. Recessions are pretty much unavoidable anyway, they're going to happen.

I don't think Bush believes he can destroy the *idea* of terrorism; this is more or less a war on a specific terrorist organization. Although I, like many, do suspect a hidden agenda... but that's for another topic. I see only superficial differences between religious wars, "world domination" wars, and "let's get our own country" wars. Essentially, they all boil down to people fighting for a set of ideals.

Back to homosexuality; I don't know whether God created it or not, because I have no idea what the true nature of God is. All I know is that it doesn't harm anyone, it's fun, and it helps prevent even more devastating overpopulation... so why stop it? Doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "Blue is banned! God thinks it's disgusting and all blue people must be changed to red. Purple people are just confused and they should be easier to change back." It's discrimination without reason.

DreamEmpress · Post by **DreamEmpress** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:08 am

I'm hoping that my post is gonna make sense because I got a headache from reading all of this. No offense to everyone who posted. You all have the right to your opinions and have made very interesting and valid points. I always enjoy hearing your thoughts. My opinions are not in any way meant to offend anyone. I only ask that my opinions be read with the same respect. I get so nervous entering these types of threads.

Ok, first off, I'm Christian, so lets get that out of the way. (but I don't watch the 700 Club or anything like that. Those programs always annoy me) I believe and always have that God gave us free agency and choice and accountiblity. We are free to choose what we will do and become and also must live with the consquences of those choices. We make choices every day from something simple like if we're gonna sleep in another five minutes to whether or not we're gonna go out and shoot somebody.

I believe that marriage between a man and a woman is sacred and that God wanted us to marry and have families. some families are just couples while others are with who knows how many kids.

I really don't believe that anyone is born a particular way. We choose what we will become from what happens to us along the road of life. There are people who are born with illnesses, but it's not the illness that immediately determines what they will become, it's how they handle it that makes all the difference.

Where I think homosexuality isn't what God wanted for us, I'm not about to condemn all of my friends who are. You may not approve of choices, but you can still love the person for who they are inside, aside from that part.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:13 am

yoshmaster5: I'm impressed... you've managed to make the link between war and homosexuality plausible in your argument!

What you're saying is that homosexuality is an issue of likes, dislikes, personality and nature, and so is war, because war is caused by these things. God can't control people's likes, dislikes, personality and nature, so he can't cause homosexuality (directly) or cause war (indirectly). Right?

Jeff wrote:Back to homosexuality; I don't know whether God created it or not, because I have no idea what the true nature of God is. All I know is that it doesn't harm anyone, it's fun, and it helps prevent even more devastating overpopulation... so why stop it? Doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "Blue is banned! God thinks it's disgusting and all blue people must be changed to red. Purple people are just confused and they should be easier to change back." It's discrimination without reason.

Amen to that!

DreamEmpress wrote:Where I think homosexuality isn't what God wanted for us, I'm not about to condemn all of my friends who are. You may not approve of choices, but you can still love the person for who they are inside, aside from that part.

The part I've put in bold is a valid viewpoint, but one that isn't relevant because homosexuality is not a choice.

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:39 am

What you're saying is that homosexuality is an issue of likes, dislikes, personality and nature, and so is war, because war is caused by these things. God can't control people's likes, dislikes, personality and nature, so he can't cause homosexuality (directly) or cause war (indirectly). Right?

Right. No one can control personality, nature, etc... No one can control what people will do.

*I'm 14 and I already realise this!

*

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:13 am

What everybody seems to be ASSUMING is that we make ALL of our choices with our concious minds. I know that I do things and don't know why. Like why people have phobeas of, well, anything. It's because of your subconcious, nobody conciously chooses to be afraid of say spiders.
Also, everybody is assuming that "God" created only "good" things. I don't mean to sound like some bitch or anything, but what humans percieve as "Evil" may not acctually be "Evil/bad". Sometimes desieses/disorders... are good. 1)It makes the person stronger for having gone through it. 2)Weedes out population. 3)Creats new ideas that may benefit the whole world. Most of those Diseases/Disorders are just as much inherent of the person as homosexuality is.Oh, and let's not forget that "God" created "The Devil" knowing that he would betray him... hmmm, think, think, think, why could that be?[BTW, I'm not trying to sound belitilling or anything with the "think" thing]
In conclusion, my personal belief is that "God" created people knowing what they were going to become depending on the choices, or Roads if you will, that they take.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:33 pm

Obsessive Touga Fan wrote:
DreamEmpress wrote:Where I think homosexuality isn't what God wanted for us, I'm not about to condemn all of my friends who are. You may not approve of choices, but you can still love the person for who they are inside, aside from that part.
The part I've put in bold is a valid viewpoint, but one that isn't relevant because homosexuality is not a choice.

Please rethink your post, OTF. It is not your responsibility to determine whether a statement is relevant to the topic or not.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:52 pm

Anthy wrote:Please rethink your post, OTF. It is not your responsibility to determine whether a statement is relevant to the topic or not.

I'm not saying the statement isn't relevant to the topic... I'm saying her conclusion isn't relevant to her own arguments. She drew what IMO is a valid conclusion, but based it partially on the idea that homosexuality is a choice. And homosexuality is not a choice.

Would it help if I simplified my point a bit, and once again just expressed my dislike of the widely-held belief that homosexuality is a choice? ^^;

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:40 pm

Obsessive Touga Fan wrote:
Anthy wrote:Please rethink your post, OTF. It is not your responsibility to determine whether a statement is relevant to the topic or not.
Would it help if I simplified my point a bit, and once again just expressed my dislike of the widely-held belief that homosexuality is a choice? ^^;

Yes, please. ^^ The way your point was worded was a little ambiguous. It kinda seemed as if you were saying her point was off-topic because you disagreed. But that's cleared up now, isn't it?