God and Homosexuality and War. Or something. I don't know

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:42 pm

Celexa wrote:Those people just have very, very narrow minds. Scuse me for getting all religious-like, but depending on what or who you believe in your theory may be different. But whoever / whatever created us obviously loves us. Our creator is the one who mad the people gay or lesbian in the first place. If Mr. Creator would be so against homosexuals, why would he / she create them?

And the one thing I can't stand is when people use homosexual terms in degrading manners such as homo, lezbo, etc. etc.

That doesn't really add up, though. If you were to analyze everything that happened in the world, and say that "God" made it so he's fine with it, then what about things like Columbine and 9/11 and the War in Iraq. I don't place any blame/credit on "God" for anything. The way I see it, if the Bible is true, and "God" created people, then he just created the first ones. People have changed from his original people since then.

I use words like homo, lez, fag, and ghay all the time. However, I'm typically speaking to my friend Joe, who's gay, or to someone else I know who's absolutely fine with homosexuality. The words aren't necessarily bad, but when they're used as derogatory terms, then I get upset.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:35 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:That doesn't really add up, though. If you were to analyze everything that happened in the world, and say that "God" made it so he's fine with it, then what about things like Columbine and 9/11 and the War in Iraq. I don't place any blame/credit on "God" for anything. The way I see it, if the Bible is true, and "God" created people, then he just created the first ones. People have changed from his original people since then.

There's a difference between homosexuality (something inherent in people that they cannot change) and wars (something people choose to do).

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:23 pm

Obsessive Touga Fan wrote:
There's a difference between homosexuality (something inherent in people that they cannot change) and wars (something people choose to do).

But I think his main point is that he believes God isn't responsible for either one of those things (please correct me if I'm wrong, ParaKiss)

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:57 pm

He's entitled to believe that God didn't cause homosexuality, and he's entitled to believe that God doesn't cause wars, but they're two different issues. Using one as an example for the other doesn't quite make sense to me. That was my point.

Jusenkyo no Pikachu · Post by **Jusenkyo no Pikachu** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 10:37 pm

And of course, people like that are blinded by faith and completely ignorant of the world around them. If God said men couldn't do it*, why didn't he say that women or animals couldn't either?

*Used the King James bible there.

Post by **Tiff** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:28 am

Obsessive Touga Fan wrote:He's entitled to believe that God didn't cause homosexuality, and he's entitled to believe that God doesn't cause wars, but they're two different issues. Using one as an example for the other doesn't quite make sense to me. That was my point.

Relax, I'm not attacking you. I was just trying to make sense of it.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:03 am

Tiff wrote:Relax, I'm not attacking you.

I never said you were? O.o I was replying to your message in... a replying to your message sort of way. I explained my point. If it sounded super-defensive I didn't mean it to ^^;

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:28 pm

Jusenkyo no Pikachu wrote:And of course, people like that are blinded by faith and completely ignorant of the world around them. If God said men couldn't do it*, why didn't he say that women or animals couldn't either?

*Used the King James bible there.

NO! They are not blinded by "Faith", ok, it's Religion, TOTALLY different. Sorry, it just eritate's me when people blur the two togeather.

Edit: Oh, and here's a better example than the war thing. People who are born without limbs or have Down Syndrome or are born with severe diabetes. God didn't "make" that happen, it just happend for one reason or another.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:00 pm

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:02 pm

peachvampiress wrote:O/T About the war thing, I beleive that no matter how bad something is, good always comes out of it. In my experience, any bad thing that's happened to me has always brought some sort of positive affect. Who knows, maybe the good that comes out of war will teach us something good (Like don't elect anyone named Bush as a president )

But I remember something that my religion teacher from last year said about marriage that I find interesting. Since marriage is for a couple to have children, a marriage with out sex isn't a real marrigae and can be annulled.

Anthy
Uh... what about the straight couples who wish to live together and share that bond but don't want children
Likewise, a married couple that chooses not to have children isn't a marriage.

[/quote]

O/T- Nothing good EVER comes out of war. People die, economies die, etc...

You lose the war, you face hate from people for losing and you may have to surrender: your government, your policies, and your land.

You win the war, you have to relocate all the refugees from the opposing side *maybe*, but on top of that, you have a horrid economy already. THEN, you will have to REBUILD the other country. No one wins. and bush sucks. IMO.
/O/T

If you don't have kids, and it's considered not a marrige? WHO CAME UP WITH THAT FBS???? SO MY COUSIN ISN'T MARRIED BECAUSE SHE DOSEN'T HAVE ANY KIDS? *married in Otcober* SO MY AUNT WILL NEVER BE IN A "REAL" MARRIGE BECAUSE OF CANCER, SHE CAN'T HAVE CHILDREN?? THAT IT B.S.!!!!

obviously, any, "against gay marrige" points are just stupid. "Marriges aren't counted by god if the two are the same gender" uh... forgot that is a RELIGION! not everyone follows the same RELIGION. "Marriges without kids are not marriges" even worse.

puh-lease...that is one of the stupidest ideas ever. so a married couple decides not to have kids, they AREN'T married? so people who can't reproduce will never be in a "real" marrige? no matter WHAT those idiots come up with, it will just be countered.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:06 pm

Shut up about war already. It has nothing to do with the topic beyond this point. Stoppit.

Post by **Tiff** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:28 pm

ObsessiveTougaFan: No, I know you didn't say I was attacking you, you just seemed very defensive. Sorry if I misunderstood ^_^

yoshmaster5: CALM DOWN. I am not kidding. Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to explain it while yellin and screaming and typing everything with the caps lock on. It's highly unnecessary. You do this way too often, and it needs to stop. The next time you do that, I WILL edit your post.

MonkeyDLuffy · Post by **MonkeyDLuffy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:48 pm

Hmmm, my parents think I am homosexual -_- It is for stupid reasons. One is anime O.o Yet, they think the reverse I do. I would think you would be more straite watching the female based shows with the short skirts and the....girls, and then wanting to draw guys and such....would seem homosexual. Not saying its always true, just my thoughts of what my parents should think of me. Me like girls ^^ But my dad is 100% against homosexuals. If I had a friend and I knew he was gay and my dad found out, he would kill me 0.o I am glad that they are beggining to allow homosexual marriages! ROCK ON! I hope the whole world allows it. Take that ignorant people!!!

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:04 pm

1) Sorry for starting the whole war thing. I didn't mean it to become something like that, I just wanted to make a point.

2) Yes, Tiff, that's what I meant. I know very well that war and homosexuality are completely different. But here's another way to explain it to understand more:

"God" made it so that people could be homosexual.
"God" made it so that people could go into war.

There is the potential to be gay, or to go to war in people. Granted, not all people can be gay. It's a matter of whether or not you are gay. Simple as that. I just meant all of that to mean that we shouldn't say that God is responsible for gay people. People have changed since the time of the ones he created. I don't think we should blame/credit anything to "God."

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:29 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:2) Yes, Tiff, that's what I meant. I know very well that war and homosexuality are completely different. But here's another way to explain it to understand more:

"God" made it so that people could be homosexual.
"God" made it so that people could go into war.

There is the potential to be gay, or to go to war in people.

Your argument seems to be that if someone believes God causes homosexuality, they also have to believe that God causes war. That simply isn't the case. It's easy to hold the viewpoint that God directly causes homosexuality but does not directly cause war.

If that's not your argument... you'll have to explain it again I'm afraid, because I don't understand.

Granted, not all people can be gay. It's a matter of whether or not you are gay. Simple as that.

Unlike war. Anyone can go to war, if they choose to or they are coerced into it. Very different kettles of fish. Hence whether God causes war and whether God causes homosexuality are separate issues on which people can form separate opinions.

I just meant all of that to mean that we shouldn't say that God is responsible for gay people. People have changed since the time of the ones he created. I don't think we should blame/credit anything to "God."

This is a valid enough opinion that IMHO you've totally failed to support. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it's a valid opinion. I'm not even sure you need to support it... it stands will enough on its own without the irrelevant stuff about war.

There's probably the potential for the above to be taken as me being blunt/harsh... so I'd like to ask that people people not take it that way

I'm just trying to be concise in getting my point across in what is hopefully a pretty friendly discussion.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:48 pm

I'm not saying that if someone belives "God" causes homosexuality, then they must believe he also causes war. I mean it more like this: People say that "God" is responsible for everything. He makes homosexual people, he makes people with the ability to go to war, and things like that. I don't think he does. I think that if he created people thousands of years ago, he didn't intend for their to be homosexual people or wars. These things just happen. People lived on, and some of them were homosexual. And then some of them started wars. However, "God" just created people, and didn't have any plan for things like that. I don't think it's fair to blame/credit "God" for everything.

Yes, homosexuality and war are two separate issues. But "God" made it so that either could happen, so they are related, if only by that. Just consider it as I'm juxtaposing the issues.

That opinion is my main point. That we shouldn't credit/blame "God" for things that people do/are.

And I'm not taking this as an attack either. I see it as a friendly debate with us on opposite sides. So, don't worry about offending me.

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:16 pm

Yes, homosexuality and war are two separate issues. But "God" made it so that either could happen, so they are related, if only by that.

This is what's fundamentally wrong with your explanation.

I don't know if God exists. I believe that if God does exist, he did cause homosexuality, but he did not cause wars. Even though you agree that they're separate issues, you don't seem to understand that one can hold totally different opinions on them.

You're saying they're related because ""God" made it so that either could happen", but that assumes that the person you're trying to convince does in fact believe that God caused both of these things. That isn't necessarily the case. If God exists (I don't know if he does), I believe that he caused homosexuality but not wars. Homosexuality is an inherent characteristic, but wars are a choice. Being able to go to war is not the same as being homosexual. Everyone is able to go to war, because everyone has free will. Only some people are homosexual.

Come to think of it, I think that's the crux of it. War is an issue of free will. People can go to war because God gave them free will (assuming God exists). This means that God can only be blamed for causing wars insofar as he caused free will - people still choose to go to war. On the other hand, homosexuality is a state of being, a characteristic, something very specific that is inherent in people. God made people gay just like he gave people free will - but while this means he did cause homosexuality, it does not mean he caused wars. And hence my opinion on the two is totally different.

(Note: The above paragraph assumes that God exists.)

Note that I'm not trying to convince you of my opinion... I'm just trying (and probably failing miserably) to explain why your linkage of homosexuality and war doesn't work.

Just consider it as I'm juxtaposing the issues.

You are. And it makes no sense to do so.

That opinion is my main point. That we shouldn't credit/blame "God" for things that people do/are.

"Do/are" is two separate things you're mangling into one when that isn't justified. It's possible to credit God for one but not the other. This kinda sums up what I was saying above.

And I'm not taking this as an attack either. I see it as a friendly debate with us on opposite sides. So, don't worry about offending me.

Nice to know ^-^

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:24 pm

Obsessive Touga Fan wrote:God made people gay just like he gave people free will - but while this means he did cause homosexuality, it does not mean he caused wars. And hence my opinion on the two is totally different.

So, basically, under this, you can assume that God gave people free will and both "Good" & "Evil" [I.E. Nobody is without sin]. It is only the individuals choice to follow "Good" over "Evil". So, perhaps God is also testing people by making them Homosexual. Just becuase you are gay, dosn't mean that you have to 'follow through' with it. [NOT MY PERSONAL OPINION BTW]

SailorBoy62 · Post by **SailorBoy62** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:28 pm

IMO, "God" is too much of an enigma to disprove or devalidate anyone's thoughts or ideas about what he did or did not do.

The 700 Club is evil. They often like to show Asian people and how they need "help" because they didn't follow the word of "God" and are now in "hell."

Obsessive Touga Fan · Post by **Obsessive Touga Fan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:33 am

Jed-kun wrote:So, basically, under this, you can assume that God gave people free will and both "Good" & "Evil" [I.E. Nobody is without sin]. It is only the individuals choice to follow "Good" over "Evil". So, perhaps God is also testing people by making them Homosexual. Just becuase you are gay, dosn't mean that you have to 'follow through' with it. [NOT MY PERSONAL OPINION BTW]

Possibly, but given that homosexuality is harmless, that'd be a pretty illogical God...