Would the world be a better place?

Anything and everything (outside of the stuff on the above forums) can be discussed here.

Moderators: SMU Staff, SMU Chibi-Mods

Locked
User avatar
denizenofevil
SMU Newbie
SMU Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 6:15 pm
Location: Washington

Would the world be a better place?

Post by denizenofevil » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:38 pm

if we didn't care about what race we are? why do we have to have pride groups? I'm asian and i don't think we should have an Asian pride group at highschool. I think we should just get rid of all those pride groups and just accept that everyone is different. why do we need to feel pride for the way we look or where we were born? shouldn't we be more proud of what we've worked for instead of something that happened by luck? i just don't see the point in being proud of something we didn't work for. personally, i don't think something is worth having if i don't stuggle for it. What do you guys think about this?

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:18 pm

It isn't pride for "how you look". it's pride for your culture. Where you come from. Your family.

You don't have to agree with any sort of pride groups, or the fact that somebody else may be proud of their heritage...but that doesn't mean it's harmful for those things to exist.

You can have pride in multiple things, you know. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having pride in both your culture, AND your accomplishments. Some people simply like learning their family/blood/culture history, the customs, and embracing them the most they can. That doens't mean they also don't embrace and have pride in their education, accomplishments, goals, and day to day actions.

You're painting this to be a black and white and either-or situation, and it doesn't have to be. Try asy ou might, you cannot eliminate race and culture, and so long as it exists, people will continue to embrace and bep roud of them.

I may not go around announcing "HEY. I'M MEXICAN-ITALIAN-GERMAN-AMERICAN", but I still enjoy learning about my culture. I love seeing my mother or grandmother prepare traditional mexican and italian foods. I also enjoy talking about my family and those who immigrated from Europe and such.

That doesn't make me any less proud of, oh, i don't know...my four years of college, the fact that I teach in an inner city school, and my strong relationship with my fiancee.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

User avatar
Senshi_of_Vision
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:20 pm

You see to me I dont think theirs a problem with "Pride" its the other p word that gets me upset. I dont see anything wrong with people being proud to be Black, or White, or Asian, Or Latin, I dont get upset when people sport "Proud American" what pisses me off, is the people who mix pride with prejudice (ugh no pun intended) and use said pride to act as if others are inferior to them. Unfortunately this is not limited to any said cultures, bigots know no color bounds thought they hate other colors. I like having pride I consider myself a strong black woman who albeit has many flaws but still does what I have to do to make life good for myself and my child who happens to be half Italian american. When he grows up he will learn to have pride in both his cultures without shunning others who arent the same.

That to me is what needs to be done, teach one to have pride in ones self yet also respect for others around them. Being different is what makes us all unique and special, its just unfortunate that alot of people twist that to try to seperate themselves or make others look bad.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:17 am

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:what pisses me off, is the people who mix pride with prejudice (ugh no pun intended) and use said pride to act as if others are inferior to them.
*Nods* And that's entirely different than having pride in your nationality and culture.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

User avatar
Jusenkyo no Pikachu
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:31 am
Location: Australia

Post by Jusenkyo no Pikachu » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:52 am

OK, I consider myself proud to be Aussie. I'm also part Swedish, part Irish, part English and even part Jamaican (you can't tell by looking at me, though). I don't usually flaunt any of that. Except when I recall the date of March 17.
"That new girl? She seems kinda weird to me. And what kind of name is Buffy anyway?"
"Hey, Aphrodisia!"
--unaired Buffy pilot

If you're reading this, then you've lost the game.

User avatar
Sailormars Obsessed fan
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:24 pm

I have a few problems with pride groups.

I don't know if this counts as a double standard but its something Ive noticed. Basically having a black culture, Asian culture, or Hispanic culture pride group is fine, but if you have a white pride group it's often times considered racist (at least that's been my experience)

another problem Ive had is how cliquish pride groups can be. I joined a GLBT pride group once and was pretty much ignored by the other members because I was heterosexual. I joined because I'm a crossdresser and was hoping for some support, but I didn't get it because I didn't fit into the other group members little circle of interest.

I had a similar problem when I joined a pagan pride group. I'm not wicca and was therefore ignored.

A lot of groups like these have a problem of unintentionally reinforcing stereotypes when they are saying they are trying to fight them.

I don't have a problem with the idea of pride groups, but from what I've seen the groups themselves rarely act the way they should or the way they say they are going to.
"The great library of Willendorf, filled with dull tomes of trite accounts by pompous historians about matters that could not possibly be of interest to anyone but themselves." Kain -- Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain

User avatar
Neon Heart
ZOMFG 1337
ZOMFG 1337
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:08 pm
Location: KCMO
Contact:

Post by Neon Heart » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:23 pm

Sailormars Obsessed fan wrote:I don't know if this counts as a double standard but its something Ive noticed. Basically having a black culture, Asian culture, or Hispanic culture pride group is fine, but if you have a white pride group it's often times considered racist (at least that's been my experience)
It's probably that whole "White Power!" thing that comes to mind, if certain people see the white pride groups. I guess it's because you never hear about black, Hispanic or Asian supremacists. At least I never do. But you always hear about white supremacists, how whites are so racist toward other races. That kind of thing.
The Single Funniest Thread Title Ever
Ian Ziering will not pose nude; world`s sigh of relief causes tornado


^ ^ ^ ROFL

User avatar
Senshi_of_Vision
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:17 pm

Neon Heart wrote: I guess it's because you never hear about black supremacists. At least I never do. But you always hear about white supremacists, how whites are so racist toward other races. That kind of thing.
They are called the Nation of Islam, well the ones from the past at least. And Neon your right there are no real supremicist groups based on other races but the bigotry and racism is still there. In all latin gangs like the Latin Kings and Queens, in the Jamacian and Island gang systems and heck even in american gangs who recruit the same kind of youth, whether its all young blacks, all young whites and asians. And to be honests thats all the KKK is a gang of thugs that stems back from some of the earliest and worst days in american history.

And Sailormarsobessedfan I get what your saying alot of people use groups to shun others thats not pride to me its the other p word. Also that is very strange about the pagan groups most pagans I know are accepting of all religious beings and dont mind sharing knowledge of the craft and other things. But just like with everything there are good and bad versions of all.

And this may start a firestorm but I have to say it a big reason to me why other "minority" (and god I use that term so loosely since minority means little and these groups are far from it.) Have pride groups is because theyve been shunned, oppressed and hated. Look at the Gays and Lesbians, yes what they did by not accepting a hetorosexual in the group is wrong, but it is probably what they go threw on a daily basis just trying to get acceptance by society period. It dont make it right but I can see why they would be leary of a straight person. Sometimes even those with good intentions can seem like a patronizing outsider when trying to show support for a group that has been threw so much.

Ive seen it with other groups as well, its wrong in my opinion but I think alot of people see a outsider trying to join their group for sympathy as a sign of guilt on their part.

People tell blacks that we need to get over what happened to the slaves in the past, it would be easy to if it wasnt such a taboo topic period. It was wrong it needs to be discussed more and not limited to a month to pump people up, its a unfortunate part of history but it needs to be out there so that wounds will heal. To me when they stop making it "Black history month" and intergrate all the histories of this country into one, youd stop seeing so many seperate groups.

Its easy to say "why do we need BET" but if you look at mainstream tv ethinic groups are still struggling to be represented. Ive still yet to see an asian family comedy since the Margret cho show. Black shows (mostly comedies cause lord knows drama cant be done) are limited to certain tv stations. The only spanish american show right now is George Lopez and Ugly Better unless you watch Telemundo or the other stations and are fluent in spanish. Lets face it to alot of people American still means Blonde Hair and Blue eye johnny and Sue. And til that nonsense is done with until the melting pot boils together your going to see these groups big time.

Frankly IMO groups like this were and are formed by the same thing they try to fight. Ignorance breeds more ignorance and puts up walls. Its hard not to want to band together against whats considered outsiders when your constantly put down and looked upon as lower class or not even in the class system.

With Latinos ive seen and experianced how people judge them, Ive heard the names they are called how people look down on them even though their culture and history spans many years, they have beautiful music and art work and come from strong families, but because some of their countries are poor and all they want to do is make a better life they are treated like low class ciitizens by many other cultures.

Asians are sterotyped big time as well, god forbid if they arent super smart, then you hear they are awful drivers and other stupid ugly hurtful things. Why not group together when people are treat ya like crap just because your different.

The Irish though they had the supposed "right" skin color were used as scapegoats for the longest, treated like dirt to. History screams of how many were on the same level as slaves back in the early days of this country.

I dont even think I have to go into detail about Native Americans...

The jews are still villified by many cultures and as a Pagan I get to deal with people who do not bother to study what the meaning of the term is automatically associating me with devil worshipers...um considering satan is not really in the patheon of deities ive choosen to study and worship and since there really is not set foundation to paganism I find it aggrivating to be lumped into one group that worships demons.

And it doesnt stop there, big people, nerds, handicaped, the mentally ill everyone has a group and it all stems from being shunned at one point. when your constantly put down for being different its easy to want to put on the face that you are someone and be proud of it. Is it right to do it at the expense of others who sympathize and are different? Or to shunned them in turn? No of course not but if you loook at both sides its understandable why this happens.

If you put it all in a nutshell pride really is not the problem, pride groups are not the problem either. To me the problem is ignorance. As long as you have idiots who take differences as a reason to hate and cause trouble groups are going to band together that have similarities. And unfortunately people who have been kicked tend to be antsy when someone from the outside tries to come in and join.

K going to jump down off the ole soap box now
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

User avatar
Sailormars Obsessed fan
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:41 am

I can fully understand the members of a GLBT group being wary of a heterosexual, but even so I fell under the T category being a crossdresser and they made me feel like an outsider.

As for the pagan group's reaction to me I dont really have an explination for that, but I knew a few buddhists in that group who were also treated badly for not being wiccan.
"The great library of Willendorf, filled with dull tomes of trite accounts by pompous historians about matters that could not possibly be of interest to anyone but themselves." Kain -- Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain

User avatar
Jeff
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:25 pm

Post by Jeff » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:43 pm

Neon Heart wrote:It's probably that whole "White Power!" thing that comes to mind, if certain people see the white pride groups. I guess it's because you never hear about black, Hispanic or Asian supremacists. At least I never do. But you always hear about white supremacists, how whites are so racist toward other races. That kind of thing.
Uh... know anything about Japan's policies during World War II?

And yes, certainly the Nation of Islam comes to mind.

There are supremacist strains in just about every culture I can think of. It is by no means a white phenomenon.

Pride groups, in my opinion, are fine. They can get out of hand, like anything else. I remember being told by a Colombian girl that I shouldn't join my high school's culture club because "whites don't have a culture."

User avatar
Senshi_of_Vision
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:48 pm

I can fully understand the members of a GLBT group being wary of a heterosexual, but even so I fell under the T category being a crossdresser and they made me feel like an outsider.

As for the pagan group's reaction to me I dont really have an explination for that, but I knew a few buddhists in that group who were also treated badly for not being wiccan.

Its really unfortunate to Im sorry you went threw that I hope one day you are able to find a group full of understanding individuals. I know there are good groups of the GBLT that understand that their are straight sympathizers, and maybe their are groups out there for individuals such as yourself who enjoy crossdressing. I know in Ny there were plenty of my friends who cross dressed and they had their little group and allowed their fun female friends and guy pals to hang out with them as long as they had open minds.


As for the pagan thing they were probably a group of jerks, self righeoutness doesnt escape people no matter how "open minded they claim to be. My step son in law (for lack of better term for the situation lol) is buddist while his wife my step daughter is pagan and they get along fine but my step daughter told me the other night that her husband was confronted at a gathering and it just doesnt seem right with me. Paganism is one of the most non conforming religions out there in my opinion, there is no set form of practice and anyone who tries to say there is in my opinion does not know what it means to be pagan. Wicca is a small part of the religion its the one that gets the most attention but its a drop in the bucket to all the beliefs and practices of paganism. And those who dare shut out others because they do not follow wiccan rede should be ashamed of themselves.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

User avatar
Jeff
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:25 pm

Post by Jeff » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:31 pm

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:As for the pagan thing they were probably a group of jerks, self righeoutness doesnt escape people no matter how "open minded they claim to be. My step son in law (for lack of better term for the situation lol) is buddist while his wife my step daughter is pagan and they get along fine but my step daughter told me the other night that her husband was confronted at a gathering and it just doesnt seem right with me.
This is way off-topic but I don't see what Buddhists were doing at a pagan group anyway, unless they were just visiting or interested in learning. Buddhism isn't a pagan religion.
Paganism is one of the most non conforming religions out there in my opinion, there is no set form of practice and anyone who tries to say there is in my opinion does not know what it means to be pagan.
Eh, that's not true. Paganism is just an umbrella term, and some of the various religions that fall under that title are indeed quite strict about adherence to standards of practice. That goes especially for reconstructionist religions, but also for more traditional forms of new religions like Wicca.


Anyway, it's too bad about your experience with the GLBT group, Sailormars Obsessed fan. I think there is a lack of clarity around the T. I am not sure what you would label yourself, if anything at all, but if you're a straight crossdresser I guess you would be a transvestite (literally means crossdresser, so sorry if it's an offensive term, I'm not really sure how you feel about it). The T in GLBT is usually considered to mean transgender or transsexual. It's still kind of annoying that they ignored you, considering that group was probably your only option.

User avatar
Sailormars Obsessed fan
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:40 pm

the pagan groups charter was "To be accepting of all religions" so it didnt surprise me that some Buddhists joined.

Its too bad the group didnt act the way they said they would
"The great library of Willendorf, filled with dull tomes of trite accounts by pompous historians about matters that could not possibly be of interest to anyone but themselves." Kain -- Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain

User avatar
Neon Heart
ZOMFG 1337
ZOMFG 1337
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:08 pm
Location: KCMO
Contact:

Post by Neon Heart » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:09 pm

Jeff wrote:
Neon Heart wrote:It's probably that whole "White Power!" thing that comes to mind, if certain people see the white pride groups. I guess it's because you never hear about black, Hispanic or Asian supremacists. At least I never do. But you always hear about white supremacists, how whites are so racist toward other races. That kind of thing.
Uh... know anything about Japan's policies during World War II?
Actually, no I didn't. Honestly. I can't help it, if I'm sheltered like that. I don't usually pay attention to any other races, it's not because I'm racist, it's because I'm usually told not to hang around other races. Blacks especially have a bad reputation where I live, because they're the majority, so ALL of the crime around here is penned on them, because it's just their fault, you know? So I'm told not to hang around people of another colo, otherwise, and I'll be honest, I'm just scared to. So I've, personally, never heard of, or seen, any other race-only groups.

So, yeah... Sorry if I come off as stupid about race to you.
The Single Funniest Thread Title Ever
Ian Ziering will not pose nude; world`s sigh of relief causes tornado


^ ^ ^ ROFL

User avatar
Jeff
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:25 pm

Post by Jeff » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:02 pm

Neon Heart wrote:Actually, no I didn't. Honestly. I can't help it, if I'm sheltered like that. I don't usually pay attention to any other races, it's not because I'm racist, it's because I'm usually told not to hang around other races. Blacks especially have a bad reputation where I live, because they're the majority, so ALL of the crime around here is penned on them, because it's just their fault, you know? So I'm told not to hang around people of another colo, otherwise, and I'll be honest, I'm just scared to. So I've, personally, never heard of, or seen, any other race-only groups.

So, yeah... Sorry if I come off as stupid about race to you.
Lol no worries, you didn't come off as stupid. I was just pointing out some examples.

How sad that you are discouraged from making friends with people of different backgrounds. But I can understand. My family was rather shocked when we moved to Central Florida at the presence of racism. In the more rural/poorer areas, it's really pronounced. The KKK did a demonstration in front of my high school a few years ago.

Locked