Double Standards with Women

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Princess Latona
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Post by Princess Latona » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:30 pm


D: Fanservice is bad now?

Maybe because it is fantasy, and RL women don't wear those? Like said before, it appeals to the men. My favorite gaming charater is Mai Shiranui, and, she wears all of 5 square inches of clothing, yet she still kicks ass, and is a strong woman!

Just because someone is DRESSED slutty, doesn't mean they go around screwing every guy in sight, kthnx.
Hoo boy, you got me started on the fanservice thing. I'll make my thoughts on this, then I'll switch back to the topic of this thread.

Just because YOU don't have issues with it does not mean that no one else should. I find fanservice to be degrading when it's applied to a character whose personality does not warrant such things. Skimpy/slutty clothes given to an ass-kicking, strong female character as a required outfit is a slap in the face to a tough character. It weakens her, puts her sexuality and sex appeal ahead of any contributions she makes to the storyline. It's fine if it's an optional second costume or something like that, but not as the default for the character.

It's totally different if a character's personality warrants fanservice. If they're intentionally made to be giggly, bouncy, scantily-clad by choice, etc. then that's different. Putting the strong female lead in a bra and thong and expecting her to be taken seriously is like making a soldier wear a G-string and sandals when he goes into battle instead of armor. It denigrates the character, denigrates their abilities by focusing on sex appeal and objectification over their strengths, and tends to piss people off.

Whew. That's my thoughts in a nutshell. Now back to the thread topic.

So I was watching a show on Discovery Channel last night about sex (Anatomy of Sex, if anyone wonders), and a thought occurred to me. Why is it that, in our society, men are able (and often encouraged) to talk about their sex lives while women are generally encouraged to keep theirs under wraps?
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:28 pm

Princess Latona wrote: So I was watching a show on Discovery Channel last night about sex (Anatomy of Sex, if anyone wonders), and a thought occurred to me. Why is it that, in our society, men are able (and often encouraged) to talk about their sex lives while women are generally encouraged to keep theirs under wraps?
Seriously I blame the Victorian Era for this mentality. Not that women before that had much more sexual freedom, but it was that era that really enforced the attitudes of how women should behave and act and have trickled down threw that era and beyond. The whole a woman should be a Lady outside and a whore in the bedroom I believe came from that era. Funny thing is people were so uptight back then that some even got offended seeing their partner naked during sex. ((Got to love the history channel for finding out stuff like this)).

Now im not one for a woman who has to tell you everything about her sexual life. Ugh my best friend likes to talk about the good bad and ugly aspects. But I do see the stigma launched at some women for being open with their sexual prowless. Im kinda on the fence on how I feel about it. The part of me that longs for the barriers to desolve and true equality between the sexes to exist says that you have to stop labeling females who are more open with their sexual antics. But the truer me who is abit old fashion says keep your habits no matter who you are guy or girl to yourself unless asked.

Ive even expressed my own annoyance at shows where female "sexual power" as they coined it is prevalent like Sex in the City and Girlfriends but thats because I was raised old school. Women just dont put their business out there and if they do at least from old fashion types are going to come across as skanky. Its a hard mentality to break.
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Post by yoshmaster5 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:07 pm

Time for my opinions on this...

On the subject of fanservice: ... no. It doesn't give characters much personality, and reduces any thoughts of character to: "... big chest. me like." This happens with Tifa in FFVII... no idea WHAT the developers were thinking with her character design in that. This also makes me dislike most fighting games more than usual... if you're relying on FANSERVICE alone to sell a game, then you shouldn't be developing the games period. This is true for Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, and many other fighting series... the only one I know of that doesn't rely on fanservice is Smash Bros.

As for the male brag about sex and females should be ashamed... yes, I also blame the Victorian Era. It repeatedly comes up every two-three decades, and goes to women need to please husbands no matter what. See the 1950s. As for guys... I dont' like hearing ANYONE talk about it. Last year at State quiz bowl, some of the other kids were going on about girls, etc... and I just wanted to leave the room because I wasn't comfortable with it, and it just freaked me out. Teasing someone is enough about it... I give one of my friends crap for having a girlfriend, but that's it. I don't want ot know ANYTHING on the subject of 'intimacy' from ANYONE. Then again... I'm an anomoly, like most things.
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Post by Queen Of Hearts » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:59 pm

Time for my opinions on this...

On the subject of fanservice: ... no. It doesn't give characters much personality, and reduces any thoughts of character to: "... big chest. me like." This happens with Tifa in FFVII... no idea WHAT the developers were thinking with her character design in that.
Yes, this is because women in real life don't have big breasts. All women have to have super small breasts to have a nice personality. Puh-lease. The boobs have nothing to do with the charater or worth, but, since most of the male gaming market is men, it will sell better with sex appeal and fanservice. Just because someone has big boobs, doesn't mean they are a .02 cent hooker.

But, I like fanservice, especially with women. Why? Its payback to all the yaoi fangirls with the "SQUEEEE YAOI BUTTSECKS DESU KAWAI ^_________^".

But, I don't see if this is a double standard with women with the fanservice. Hating all yuri and hentai is typical of fangirls. I had a girl call me a pervert because I like Yuri, but she had a whole stack of hentai yaoi doujin in her hands. That is a double standard to me. A yaoi fangirl isn't a pervert for liking yaoi, but men are for liking hentai. WTF. They are the same thing.

But, honestly, its just fanservice. Don't buy the games and don't buy the anime, if you hate it so much.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:08 pm

I still dont see where "Hate" came into play at all. Many have said they disliked it. And why cant games be made where females kick ass and didnt run around half naked to do so? That to me seems to be a double standard women to be placed in games and or fighting have to look a certain way just to be placed. Its like that in comics as well and it makes no sense. Your whole arguement that people are saying big boobs= dumb is childish as well. As a woman with big boobs and Im sure a few other women of this forum who have such things Ive never in my life been called a slut or stupid for having them. Nor have I seen small chested women called smart. Since when did that part of Anatomy determine a persons brain capacity?

Or maybe your proving the point of why these characters are offensive and pointless by constantly aruging that people are assuming big boobs equal skanky or dumb. Seriously though that wasnt the point of not liking the way STRONG female characters in some of our eyes should be portrayed. Yet once again you take it upon yourself to dictate what others should do if they dont like something. Im sure buisness means nothing to you at this age then, but to me it would make more sense to stop catering to some and try to well round games since more and more females are playing and dont always want to run around half naked in a game. Fantasy or not if they are going to make it that way I want my sexy barbarian dude in nothing but a loincloth and oiled up with perfect pecks. </sarcasm>
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Rin » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:05 am

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:Fantasy or not if they are going to make it that way I want my sexy barbarian dude in nothing but a loincloth and oiled up with perfect pecks. </sarcasm>
That just made me lol really hard. XD

Now back to fanservice. Seriously, a woman can have big boobs and not show it off to the world. When I ran track for high school, if I did not wear a sports bra I would be in incredible pain after a run, and I'm only a C! Having big boobs =/= mandatory skimpy clothing.

Tifa in Final Fantasy, she's wearing hardly anything on top and a very short skirt... and she's supposed to be a martial artist! Wow, panty shots galore. ::roles eyes::

Rikku in FFX2, has like nothing on, and she is fairly flat chested. But seriously, one knife swipe to her abdomen and she's done for.

And another point. FFX2 was supposed to be geared towards girls... so why put them all in skimpy clothes. Even Paine, who is supposed to be a complete badass, hardly has anything on at times.

I can let clothing slide if a character is a mage and not in direct contact with the enemy, but if the character is supposed to be some sort of fighter, I'd hope she'd have some type of armor on.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:16 am

lol and I wrote that while ticked off to ^_^ but seriously I see it as a real kick in the pants that game developers and comic creators tend to see that only women with ridiculos proportions and half naked can fight. I look at it this way if the female doesnt have super powers then shes an easy target to take down without proper clothing. And im sorry id be more afraid of a big woman in normal clothes or armor then some half naked dintz that ran around complaining about getting her nail broken. Is this a standard for all games? No. But youd be suprized how many fantasy games give a female a bra and thong and expect this to be proper fighting gear.

I got lucky the MMO I play the female has a choice of outfits that cater to their character and like most people who dont want to be killed outright by creatures dress appropriately. I just dont get the mentality of any creator who thinks a person could seriously fight in such attire without taking a severe grazing. Fanservice asside its pandering like this that objectifies women and if were gonna do that I want my half naked sexy men!
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

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Post by Tiff » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:21 am

ADMIN MODE:

...Okay, why is it after I COMPLETELY addressed the issue of "stop being so defensive", that a page later, I see the exact same thing?

I DON'T want to have to close this thread, and if things keep getting heated, then I'm going to have to.

Queen of Hearts, I don't know if you missed my post directed at you earlier, but it looks as though you completely ignored it. Stop getting so defensive about everything when someone doesn't agree with you. Nobody is personally attacking you OR women. Nobody. So stop it.

Guys, let's stay on topic and keep the discussion civil.

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Post by Princess Latona » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:18 pm

Getting back on topic (and hopefully staying there this time...).

So I adore flowers, since my family always had a garden as I was growing up. I also see them a lot as I intern in the hospital when I walk into patients' rooms. So, for the hell of it, I popped onto ProFlowers.com to poke around, and what do I see? This (emphasis mine):
So, you missed "the big day". It's not too late to make it right. Send her a bouquet bursting with your love. The bigger, the better and the "belated" will be forgotten!
Now, my personal thoughts on Valentine's Day aside, why is it that the only people who should be thought of on V-Day are the ladies? What would have been wrong with it saying "them" as opposed to "her"? Seriously, in spite of what people might think, there actually are men who love and appreciate getting Valentine's gifts, and who are happy to receive flowers.

My fiance and I were talking about it, and he asked why the onus of Valentine's Day is for the man to get the woman gifts. Not to say that that's the only way it's done (I try to get him something, not the other way around), but it seems like it's the man's responsibility to make sure he gets something for the lady in his life. Meanwhile, I don't see nearly the same pressure put on women to get something for the man in their life. Seriously, WTF?
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:38 am

Princess Latona wrote:Getting back on topic (and hopefully staying there this time...).

So I adore flowers, since my family always had a garden as I was growing up. I also see them a lot as I intern in the hospital when I walk into patients' rooms. So, for the hell of it, I popped onto ProFlowers.com to poke around, and what do I see? This (emphasis mine):
So, you missed "the big day". It's not too late to make it right. Send her a bouquet bursting with your love. The bigger, the better and the "belated" will be forgotten!
Now, my personal thoughts on Valentine's Day aside, why is it that the only people who should be thought of on V-Day are the ladies? What would have been wrong with it saying "them" as opposed to "her"? Seriously, in spite of what people might think, there actually are men who love and appreciate getting Valentine's gifts, and who are happy to receive flowers.

My fiance and I were talking about it, and he asked why the onus of Valentine's Day is for the man to get the woman gifts. Not to say that that's the only way it's done (I try to get him something, not the other way around), but it seems like it's the man's responsibility to make sure he gets something for the lady in his life. Meanwhile, I don't see nearly the same pressure put on women to get something for the man in their life. Seriously, WTF?

Woo I get to play dime store historian again, or at least the old lady who babbles about back in the day :)

Im thinking the whole Men have to get the Valentines day presents really became a standard around the 50's. It was then after the war were women went back to being homemakers and men were expected to earn the finances. So holidays like Valentines day became a way for husbands to spoil their wives. Ads like "pamper your misses" was prevelant. And even young boys who wanted to impress their sweetie were told that to do so they had to buy the chocolates and spring for the date night movie. I chalk it up to many silly things like boys having to ask girls to dance (unless its saddie hawkins style) or the standard of if a woman proposes its seen as almost bullying or weird. When to me if a couple is ready to marry should it matter who asks first now adays? I can see my grandmother going into a tizzy if she read that to. Old fashion mentaly still boils into todays standards and because of that you see more pressure on men to be the givers on Valentines day.

But thats just my opinion :wink:
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

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Post by Tiff » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:18 pm

It also boils down to the simple fact that most men don't CARE about flowers. It's just one of those things...kind of like how most women don't care about, say, football, as much as men. That's not to say there aren't men out there who like flowers, and there aren't women out there who love sports...just that the MAJORITY of the general population is like this.

I adore flowers, and so my husband gives them to me. But i've asked him before, and he simply doesn't care enough to receive them. They don't do for him what they do for me.

It isn't that women aren't buying gifts for their men...hell, I made something sentimental for mine. It's just that the KINDS of gifts are different based on what that gender/person would like.

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Post by NameGoesHere » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:14 am

What bothers me is not the element of men/women liking or disliking flowers...
So, you missed "the big day". It's not too late to make it right. Send her a bouquet bursting with your love. The bigger, the better and the "belated" will be forgotten!
...it's the assertion that a woman must be given a gift on Valentine's Day. There seems to be this running concept that women will either turn into raging beasts, or just completely break down if they don't get a box of chocolates. It goes back to the whole "women can't control their emotions" thing.

Now, I don't know about everybody else, but I personally don't want it assumed that I am a wrathful god in need of an offering every February 14th. >_>
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Post by Tiff » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:30 am

NameGoesHere wrote:What bothers me is not the element of men/women liking or disliking flowers...

...it's the assertion that a woman must be given a gift on Valentine's Day. There seems to be this running concept that women will either turn into raging beasts, or just completely break down if they don't get a box of chocolates. It goes back to the whole "women can't control their emotions" thing.

Now, I don't know about everybody else, but I personally don't want it assumed that I am a wrathful god in need of an offering every February 14th. >_>
But the thing is? I've SEEN women react that way. Or how about when you receive flowers at work, and all the women around you moan and groan on and on about "I wish MY booyfrriiieeendw ould send ME flooowweeerrrss *Whine*" Again, not to say all women are like this, but the assertion is, for some part, correct in a way.

Honetsly, I didn't read the ad as saying "Your woman will chop off your balls and throw you outside if you don't get her a bouquet"...I just read it as "Hey, most women think gifts are important, buddy, so you might wanna consider it?"

I dunno ^^; I guess it just doesn't bother me, because I've always been a traditionalist with gift-giving, and Joe is, too.

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Post by NameGoesHere » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:18 am

Tiff wrote:But the thing is? I've SEEN women react that way.
Oh, I have, too. My half-sister literally ordered her husband to go out and buy her a gift after he had come home with nothing one v-day. If she could've shot steam out of her nose, she would have. I know it happens, and it really isn't uncommon. That doesn't change the fact that it is an unflattering stereotype, one that I don't particularly like.

It is similar to the common stereotype that men are messy. I see plenty of messy men every day, probably even the majority (where I work, anyway), but I don't think most guys would think it fair for me to assume that as fact.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:18 am

NameGoesHere wrote: Oh, I have, too. My half-sister literally ordered her husband to go out and buy her a gift after he had come home with nothing one v-day. If she could've shot steam out of her nose, she would have. I know it happens, and it really isn't uncommon. That doesn't change the fact that it is an unflattering stereotype, one that I don't particularly like.

It is similar to the common stereotype that men are messy. I see plenty of messy men every day, probably even the majority (where I work, anyway), but I don't think most guys would think it fair for me to assume that as fact.
*Nodsnods* The only thing is...stereotypes can only exist if there are people out there who continue to live up to them, like your half-sister.

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Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
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Post by Passions55 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:15 pm

Tiff wrote:*Nodsnods* The only thing is...stereotypes can only exist if there are people out there who continue to live up to them, like your half-sister.
And that right there is the crux of the matter. Negative/unflattering stereotypes can't exist unless there are people who keep them alive. unfortunately even if there are several women who have very positive and/or reasonable traits that are credits to the female gender as a whole, you bet that it it only the negative ones that will get noticed and commented on. It's cyclic.
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Post by AnimatedEvey12 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:50 pm

The whole working women bashing stay at home women I've heard a lot. Although I have heard it the other way around. Example: My sister (who lives in Mexico) is a working mom of two, her husband works and one of her kids goes to school while the other (who's nine months) is taken care of by her mother in law. She has been criticized by my other sister for "being a bad mother". My other sister tells her that her work is getting in the way of spending time with her kids. Although she does help her son with his homework and she does get time to spend with her family.

I also don't like how people assume it's always the man abusing the woman. Woman can be just as abusive (if not more) than men. Lady Macbeth anyone?
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Post by Tiff » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:27 pm

AnimatedEvey12 wrote:The whole working women bashing stay at home women I've heard a lot. Although I have heard it the other way around. Example: My sister (who lives in Mexico) is a working mom of two, her husband works and one of her kids goes to school while the other (who's nine months) is taken care of by her mother in law. She has been criticized by my other sister for "being a bad mother". My other sister tells her that her work is getting in the way of spending time with her kids. Although she does help her son with his homework and she does get time to spend with her family.

I also don't like how people assume it's always the man abusing the woman. Woman can be just as abusive (if not more) than men. Lady Macbeth anyone?
...How is having family babysit her child equate being a bad parent? WTF?

And the abuse thing drives me crazy. I despise when there's a domestic dispute where BOTH parties are acting like abusive asshats, but only the man gets taken away. It's bullshit.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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jupiter23
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Post by jupiter23 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:18 pm

AnimatedEvey12 wrote:The whole working women bashing stay at home women I've heard a lot. Although I have heard it the other way around. Example: My sister (who lives in Mexico) is a working mom of two, her husband works and one of her kids goes to school while the other (who's nine months) is taken care of by her mother in law. She has been criticized by my other sister for "being a bad mother". My other sister tells her that her work is getting in the way of spending time with her kids. Although she does help her son with his homework and she does get time to spend with her family.

I also don't like how people assume it's always the man abusing the woman. Woman can be just as abusive (if not more) than men. Lady Macbeth anyone?
I don't know how they figure on that, because it's actually not an uncommon practice to have family members rather than total strangers baby-sit. Almost everyone I work with that has kids leaves them with a family member to baby-sit so they can earn a living. (And it's even less uncommon in Mexico. They're more family-oriented there.)

And it may only be in my area, but I think it's becoming more common to take away both parties if they're both fighting. Especially if there are children in the house. But yes, women abusing men is more common than people think. It's just not reported as much, because society tends to think a man should be able to stand up to a woman in any case.
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Princess Latona
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Post by Princess Latona » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:41 am

Okay, so the drama that set this thought off is lengthy, obnoxious, and a bit personal to stick in here, so I'll stick to my ponderings.

Why is it that a man can be legitimately angry or hurt about something and not necessarily get called out severely on it, while a woman who is showing anger is labelled with the "C" word? Seriously, it's really ridiculous that I can't argue with my guy over something that legitimately has upset me without that label being attached to me by one of his family members because my fiance gets upset during our argument. (The argument itself wasn't overheard, but his outburst back at me was loud enough for others to hear on his end.)

I thought we were past the days when women were seen as gentle, sweet little flowers that should never show a spot of temper. If I'm angry at my fiance over something he's done to piss me off, I have just as much of a right to express that as he would, without being worried someone doesn't like it enough to stick that label on me. Seriously, if I'm the "C" word for expressing my emotions, people who judge me like that are pretentious assholes.

ETA: It isn't just with me that I've seen it. I've noticed women aren't looked on as favorably for showing emotions such as anger. It's one thing if the emotion makes them cry or be upset otherwise, but to show anger in a similar way as a man (shouting, etc) seems more apt to get a woman pegged with the "C" label. Really frustrating for someone who doesn't censor herself most times, like me. :P
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