Abortion

Anything and everything (outside of the stuff on the above forums) can be discussed here.

Moderators: SMU Staff, SMU Chibi-Mods

User avatar
Sailormars Obsessed fan
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Sun May 21, 2006 8:36 pm

Personally I have mixed feelings on this issue and could only go by a case by case basis however there is one argument that is often overlooked. If a woman (espically a scared teen) wants an abortion she is likely to make it happen one way or the other reguardless of the legality of it. That being said I think it should be legal simply as a matter of safty. If its illegal then the desperate teen is going to find another way to do it, be it black market or simply doing it herself, and these methods can lead to serious health concerns for the mother. Who ultimatly has the bigger claim on life the mother or the child? This is a question that is unlikely to ever truly be answered. There is a morality issue here, but legality and morality cannot always agree. Its simply the way things are. Though I feel sorry for the unborn baby I think making abortion illegal would do a lot more harm then good in the long run.

#1SailorMoonFan
SMU Fan
SMU Fan
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:18 am

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Wed May 24, 2006 7:11 pm

This is from a guy's point of view: I believe that a guy should have no say in an abortion. Especially on cases of rape, possible death, and incest. I feel if a guy has sex with a girl and planned to have a child should also have know that the woman might get an abortion during their time together.

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Wed May 24, 2006 7:13 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:This is from a guy's point of view: I believe that a guy should have no say in an abortion. Especially on cases of rape, possible death, and incest. I feel if a guy has sex with a girl and planned to have a child should also have know that the woman might get an abortion during their time together.
...WTF?

So if a guy and a girl ar ein a committed relationship, and they speak of having children together, and make lifelong plans...and she gets pregnant, he should just magically and happily be okay with her destroying the baby they made? The baby they had planned and shared dreams about, simply becuase she may have changed her mind?

That...is such backwards thinking to me.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

User avatar
AnimeGuru0
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 1077
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Contact:

Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed May 24, 2006 7:32 pm

#1sailormoonfan -

Wow.

That's your opinion but........wow.

All I can say is that I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. The man is JUST as responsible for that baby as the woman is, to say he should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER........just confuses me. That takes away the RIGHT of being a father. Men should have rights, they're not invisible parties here.

Yeah........Can't possibly disagree with you more.
Last edited by AnimeGuru0 on Wed May 24, 2006 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TBA

User avatar
Sailormars Obsessed fan
SMU Divine Fan
SMU Divine Fan
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Wed May 24, 2006 7:36 pm

I think the guy shouldn't have say if hes raped her or it was a case of incest. However if he is a serious partner then yes he definitely should have some level of say in the matter.

I'm not sure what to say about a pregnancy that results from a fling though? I guess that's a gray area.
"The great library of Willendorf, filled with dull tomes of trite accounts by pompous historians about matters that could not possibly be of interest to anyone but themselves." Kain -- Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain

#1SailorMoonFan
SMU Fan
SMU Fan
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:18 am

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Wed May 24, 2006 7:39 pm

Wow.

That's your opinion but........wow.

All I can say is that I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. The man is JUST as responsible for that baby as the woman is, to say he should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER........just confuses me. That takes away the RIGHT of being a father. Men should have rights, they're not invisible parties here.

Yeah........Can't possibly disagree with you more.
That's OK. To me, they ARE the invisible party. They just don't deserve to take over a woman's body, IMO.

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Wed May 24, 2006 7:45 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
That's OK. To me, they ARE the invisible party. They just don't deserve to take over a woman's body, IMO.
How is that "taking over a woman's body"?

Okay, you know what? I'm so tired of people acting as though women deserve a medal fo rhaving babies.

I'm a woman, and I don't think I'm OMG SPESHUL just becuase I'm going to give birth one day. My body was DESIGNED to have babies. That's what female animals do (and, biologically, we are basically animals), and we don't deserve a freakin award for it. Is it hard work? Of course. But good god, you have a choice of whether or not to do it. Don't want to? Take one of the many different kinds of birth control, or don't have sex at all. It's become disgusting to hear how privlidged women think they are simply becuase they're procreating.

Wake up, ladies. That's what your bodies are BUILT for. And it doesn't give me the right to screw over a man who may cherish or love a child he helped make. I just think it's absolutely disgusting that the rights of fathers are so overlooked.

Funny. We want men to pay child support until they die for the babies THEY don't want. But what abuot the fathers who WANT their children, but can' thave them becuase "OH MY GOD IT'S THE WOMAN'S BODY"? I guess they just don't matter.

That sure is a fair fucking deal.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

#1SailorMoonFan
SMU Fan
SMU Fan
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:18 am

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Wed May 24, 2006 7:51 pm

How is that "taking over a woman's body"?
Because it is telling her what she can and can't do. I just think that is unfair!
Okay, you know what? I'm so tired of people acting as though women deserve a medal for having babies.
Was that directed to me? If so, I just think women should be treated equally, not given medals.

User avatar
Slrjoecool
SMU Chibi-mod
SMU Chibi-mod
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:17 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Slrjoecool » Wed May 24, 2006 7:53 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
How is that "taking over a woman's body"?
Because it is telling her what she can and can't do. I just think that is unfair!
Okay, you know what? I'm so tired of people acting as though women deserve a medal for having babies.
Was that directed to me? If so, I just think women should be treated equally, not given medals.
So, taking away a man's right to be a father is considered fair if the woman doesn't want the baby? I'm sorry, but I disagree.
~~ Married to my Tiffu on August 4th, 2007 ~~

Flesh may cross the portal,
and seek it’s master Death.
Life may go where Death has trod,
and challenge, like Scheherazade,
he who reigns beneath the sod,
to spare a mortal’s breath.

My Journal: Hope
Web Gallery of Michael’s Pictures

User avatar
Starscream
SMU Chibi-mod
SMU Chibi-mod
Posts: 1545
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Starscream » Wed May 24, 2006 7:54 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
How is that "taking over a woman's body"?
Because it is telling her what she can and can't do. I just think that is unfair!
If both parties went into the sexual experience consenting to it and wanting to have a child, and the woman later decides that no, I don't want to go through it, that's unfair to the father of the child, not to the woman. That's just the woman being a selfish bitch.
- David Graña

<3 Happily Married to Jennifer since July 16, 2005 <3

"Conquest is made from the ashes of one’s enemies" - Starscream
My Livejournal.

Judge: "Yes. What? You say if I testify I’ll be killed? Oh. It’s for you." (hands the phone to Fry)
Roberto: (On the phone) "And the other hamburger will also be made of your lungs. So long, pal."
Fry: "I refuse to testify on the grounds that my organs will be chopped up into a patty."
Judge: "Ah, the 67th Amendment."
Futurama, Insane in the Mainframe

Leela’s (former) boss: "Oh my various gods!"
Futurama, How Hermes Requisitioned his Groove Back

User avatar
AnimeGuru0
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 1077
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Contact:

Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed May 24, 2006 8:08 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
How is that "taking over a woman's body"?
Because it is telling her what she can and can't do. I just think that is unfair!
And telling a father that he can and cannot have the right to raise that child is fair?
Okay, you know what? I'm so tired of people acting as though women deserve a medal for having babies.
Was that directed to me? If so, I just think women should be treated equally, not given medals.
I think it was more of a general statement. That's why she used the word "people" and not "you". I just find it ironic that you want women to be treated equally and fairly by having men be treated unequally and unfairly.

Just from my point of view, if I had a relationship that resulted in a pregnancy and my girlfriend/wife/fling/whatever decided to get an abortion without telling me, without me having a say, I would feel increadibly violated, taken advantage of, and conspired against. I would definately think that "things weren't fair"

PS - I hope you don't feel we're ganging up on you. This is merely our opinions. :)

TBA

User avatar
Sailorasteroid
ZOMFG 1337
ZOMFG 1337
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Post by Sailorasteroid » Wed May 24, 2006 8:16 pm

Funny, in health class back in high school, I was taught the same thing as a moral principle: that a man has no say if the woman wanted an abortion. But I always wonder about the flip: what if a man is willing to abort but the woman wants to carry the baby to term? It's been suggested that a man should have the right to "opt out" of fatherhood: he loses all visitation rights but doesn't have to pay child support. I see a lot of potential for abuse of such a principle, but something should be done. As always, I say the answer is better, cheaper, and more ubiquitous birth control, so there are fewer unwanted pregnancies.
Things I think Are Funny Early in the Morning: If Batman were a Smurf: "Quick, Robin! We must smurf down to the Batcave and smurf the Batplane! Then we must smurf the batsmurf so we can smurf where the Joker is smurfing!"

The Croonerism Spate (explanations upon request)
Be careful with this one, there is a bit of a pun involved. Dr. Spooner described his visit to a castle: "In the center of the fortress was the Palace Court. The gated entrance to this area was the court palace."

Users whose sigs my quotes have made (now in two columns)
Tempest___________________Peachvampiress (I think)
Sylphiel (twice!)____________Neon Heart
RoastedTwinkies (long ago)___Alexclow345
Seiusa____________________Nehelenia`s Crazy Fangirl

I <3 all you guys!

490

#1SailorMoonFan
SMU Fan
SMU Fan
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:18 am

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Wed May 24, 2006 8:46 pm

PS - I hope you don't feel we're ganging up on you. This is merely our opinions.
I sorta did. It's OK.
As I said before, a man should go into a relationship with a woman knowing that she MAY have an abortion. BUT, you guys made me think. A point I never really thought about. If a man wants the baby, and the women doesn't, then I do say he should be allowed to keep the baby and the woman should leave then. But then I think, what is stopping the woman from getting an abortion and just leaving him? What would happen then? Should she get punished or not?

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Wed May 24, 2006 9:10 pm

#1SailorMoonFan, I'm very vehement when it comes to my opinions, so don't feel as though I'm trying to attack you. This is always how I am. I am sorry if it came off that way. I'm just very passionate about the particular issue of father's rights. ^_^ we're all having intelligent discussion here.

But see, we've all made good points that prove abortion is SUCH a complex issue. It will never be black and white. There are so many "what ifs" and millions of scenarios, that we can't create a law and a loophole for all of them.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

#1SailorMoonFan
SMU Fan
SMU Fan
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:18 am

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Wed May 24, 2006 9:21 pm

I'm very vehement when it comes to my opinions, so don't feel as though I'm trying to attack you. This is always how I am. I am sorry if it came off that way. I'm just very passionate about the particular issue of father's rights. ^_^ we're all having intelligent discussion here.
Don't worry! There are some issues that I feel so strongly about I could argue for days and days.
But see, we've all made good points that prove abortion is SUCH a complex issue. It will never be black and white. There are so many "what ifs" and millions of scenarios, that we can't create a law and a loophole for all of them.
My god, you are one of the smartest people I have ever met! And you're right about the black and white issue. And the loophole thing. It just goes back and forth and sometimes it feels like you are on this side and on the next side the next moment. Anyway, my standing: Pro-choice where the father has SOME rights. Only one the condition that they both agreed to have sex.
Last edited by #1SailorMoonFan on Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Wed May 24, 2006 9:30 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
Don't worry! There are some issues that I feel so strongly about I could argue for days and days.
glad you understand. ^_^
My god, you are one of the smartest people I have ever met! And you're right about the black and white issue. And the loophole thing. It just goes back and forth and sometimes it feels like you are on this side and on the next side the next moment. Anyway, my standing: Pro-choice where the father has SOME rights. Only one the condition that they both agreed to have sex.
o_o thank you. *Blush* XD;;

*Nods* Exactly. When it comes to abortion, I can't truly decide "for" or "against", becuase it's just not that simple.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

User avatar
RoastedTwinkies
ZOMFG 1337
ZOMFG 1337
Posts: 1421
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:33 pm
Location: Canada

Post by RoastedTwinkies » Fri May 26, 2006 12:07 am

I myself am very pro-life and I would not have an abortion unless absolutely necessary (in the case of rape, incest or life endangerment). If I couldn't afford to have the child, then I would carry the pregnancy to term as I could not live with myself if I had an abortion.

As far as other people go, I take the view that their decisions are none of my business.

User avatar
Anthy
SMU Freak
SMU Freak
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:06 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by Anthy » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:57 pm

I don't *like* the idea of abortion. It sucks, it really does, and anyone claiming it's an "easy way out" has obviously never dealt with the issue themselves or had a loved one who has. It's a very tough decision.

However, I think it should remain legal. It's better, I think, to have safe and clean procedures than unsafe ones.

Abortion, to me, should not have to be as big of an issue as it is. If sex education in schools was factual and comprehensive, and if all insurance programs completely covered the costs of conception control, it would not be as big of an issue as it is now. The argument that "If you don't want kids, don't have sex" is outdated and infantilizes those who choose to have sex lives.

Having an accident pregnancy is not an indicator of a woman's value, irresponsibility, incompetence, idiocy, number of sexual partners, a personal faliure, sluttiness, or anything similar; I am saddened to see that so many people here seem to think so. Accidents happen and sometimes birth control fails.

Furthermore muddling are the "shoulds" and "oughts" discussed here which cannot be legalized. Sure, if a woman became pregnant by her long term male partner, she should tell him. But would you want the law in that aspect personal life? This is an issue of personal ethics, not legislature. And shit happens in regards to personal ethics.

And what happens if the woman is a swinger and does not know who fathered her child?

I disagree with the notion that the child/embryo/whatever is half hers, half his. Genetically, it is. HOWEVER--the biological commitments for women are MUCH MUCH MUCH greater than the man's. He is there for sperm. She has to bear the child for nine months and give birth, forever changing her body. Timewise, the commitment ratio is 1:6,720, male:female, if we assume the sex act takes one hour. And that's not even taking into consideration the work missed and health risks associated with pregnancy. If the two partners disagree on whether to keep the kid, would it not be logical to go with the mother's opinion, since her commitment to the pregnancy is much more involved? And, if that is the case, why bother asking the man at all?

I do not think that anyone, male or female, should be forced into motherhood or fatherhood.
Princess AIcon by livejournal user equivalency

User avatar
Tiff
SMU Staff
SMU Staff
Posts: 7604
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: TX
Contact:

Post by Tiff » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:25 pm

Anthy wrote:
and if all insurance programs completely covered the costs of conception control, it would not be as big of an issue as it is now.
My god, yes. It sickens me that most insurance companies will cover Viagra, but not birth control. I'm lucky enough to pay cheaply for birth control, but I used to have a different insurance that made me pay far more. It's insane.

Having an accident pregnancy is not an indicator of a woman's value, irresponsibility, incompetence, idiocy, number of sexual partners, a personal faliure, sluttiness, or anything similar; I am saddened to see that so many people here seem to think so. Accidents happen and sometimes birth control fails.
I agree, but I think people are gearing their mind more toward the teens who ARE irresponsible and slutty, sleep around with no regard, and don't RESPONSIBLY use birth control and end up pregnant and have multiple abortions. I don't think anyone here is actually targeting women who lead responsible lives, and use birth control but still wind up pregnant. I mean, yeah, it happens. But again, I don't think that's who the people on this forum are targeting.

And what happens if the woman is a swinger and does not know who fathered her child?
Well, in my opinion and maybe in the opinion of others, that's kinda slutty and irresponsible. I have nothing against couples who want to swing..what they do is their business. But in my opinion, if you're going to be a swinger, you should probably do so responsibly and, you know..KEEP TRACK of who you fuck and use some sort of birth control back up. I mean, hell..if you have so many partners that you don't know who fathered your kid, that's..pretty damn slutty in my book.
I disagree with the notion that the child/embryo/whatever is half hers, half his. Genetically, it is. HOWEVER--the biological commitments for women are MUCH MUCH MUCH greater than the man's. He is there for sperm. She has to bear the child for nine months and give birth, forever changing her body.
And again, that's what women were built for. Biologically, that's why we have a uterus and breasts and a vagina that can squeeze a watermelon-sized human being out of it. I still say a woman doesn't deserve a damn award for this. The sheer fact that a woman is doing what her body was built for doesn't discredit the father or make him inferior. It's not his damn fault his body was buil to do less.
I do not think that anyone, male or female, should be forced into motherhood or fatherhood.
And yet...we still force fathers to pay for children they don't want, while a woman can just get rid of hers. I see something wrong with that.

Again, not against abortion as a whole, but..as I said before, there are so many greys in this issue.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

User avatar
Anthy
SMU Freak
SMU Freak
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:06 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by Anthy » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:42 pm

Tiff wrote:Well, in my opinion and maybe in the opinion of others, that's kinda slutty and irresponsible
Even sluts need to be protected. I try not to judge people based on their sexual behaviors.
Tiff wrote:And again, that's what women were built for. Biologically, that's why we have a uterus and breasts and a vagina that can squeeze a watermelon-sized human being out of it. I still say a woman doesn't deserve a damn award for this. The sheer fact that a woman is doing what her body was built for doesn't discredit the father or make him inferior. It's not his damn fault his body was buil to do less.
I'm not saying she should have an award. Far from it. I just think that she shouldn't be penalized for it. Just because I was built to have children doesn't mean I will, or should, or am obligated to. I never said that the father is "discredited" or "inferior." I just think she should have more say over whether she bears a child, since SHE's the one bearing it, so it's a tougher decision for her.

Anyways, my main biff with making abortion illegal is that emergency contraceptives will be next on the list. The rights for those are already being taken away. It's totally unacceptable.
Princess AIcon by livejournal user equivalency

Locked