Abortion

ShanSunflower · Post by **ShanSunflower** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:18 pm

Tiff wrote: Or she could, you know, wear a fucking condom, take the pill, use an IUD, get her tubes tied, have her partner get a vasectomy, or keep her pants on. But I suppose that's just too much to ask, what with all the cheap/free birth control that's available.

What if she used protection, but got pregnant anyway? That's often the case.
How about all the teenagers and young adults who come out of high school with no idea that condoms and birth control usually work when used correctly, since they've been lied to by abstinance-only education?
If she is really is naive enough to not use a condom or birth control, can she really be trusted to carry a pregnancy to full-term?

Whether or not she used protection does not change the fact that she is pregnant right now and doesn't want to be.

Yvaine · Post by **Yvaine** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:09 pm

Personally I am 99.9% sure I wouldn't get an abortion, but every person's situation is different, and there are people who have different religious and moral values than I do. Being pro-choice to me doesn't mean that I'm "pro-abortion" - it means supporting access to all reproductive options, be it contraception, abortion, motherhood, or adoption. So that women and men are educated about their options, have access to the tools they need to make their own private decisions about whether and when to have a child. /rant

Post by **Tiff** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:08 am

ShanSunflower wrote: What if she used protection, but got pregnant anyway? That's often the case.
How about all the teenagers and young adults who come out of high school with no idea that condoms and birth control usually work when used correctly, since they've been lied to by abstinance-only education?
If she is really is naive enough to not use a condom or birth control, can she really be trusted to carry a pregnancy to full-term?

Whether or not she used protection does not change the fact that she is pregnant right now and doesn't want to be.

Then it all goes back to the same "risk factor" that we posted on earlier. Sex, with or without protection, is a risk. And I simply don't think it's right to "deal" with the "consequences" by having abortions. Obviously, we don't agree with one another, so *shrugs* when it all goes back to that argument, we're starting right back where we were.

I've said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again..that's why this issue is SO not black and white. There are so many grey areas, that it's impossible to come up with some "right' or "wrong" answer when it comes to this topic.

And come on, someone who isn't educated on how to use a condom/pills isn't an idiot. Just ignorant, and ignorance isn't the same as stupidity. And in this day and age, the number of people who DON'T know about birth control just...isn't even a factor. It's not 1952, where Mary Sue may not know something as fantastic as the condom doesn't exist. Kids as young as 12 who are having sex know. So that's a weak argument, IMO.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:59 pm

And, you know, if you do have an abortion for selfish reasons, fine. I ultimately have compassion for you. But you'd expect such people to maybe be a little sensitive about the issue and not proud, marching on Washington and shrieking about their sacrosanct "choice."

All abortions are ultimately selfish, which isn't bad. I'm not going to criticize any woman's reason not to have a child. Her reasons for not wanting a child are always valid. I trust that women know best for themselves.

Ultimately, you can't legally force any person to do something they do not want to do, including giving birth--that's forced labor in the most literal sense. And, since birth is infinitely less safe than having a safe abortion, I have nothing but support for women who choose that route for any reason--especially the reasons the high and mighty public deems "superficial."

I don't understand the people who are all, "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!!" The men don't have to give birth. It's sad that some guys will be affected negatively by abortion, but they don't have to go through it. If you're that messed up by your girlfriend's or wife's choice, you're being incredibly selfish. It's her health and bodily autonomy that matters the most, not your feelings.

Abortion is icky, but too bad. To be pro-choice is to support options--information, contraception, and abortion.

ShanSunflower, I just want to say you're so on target.

And yet, animals fuck solely for procreation.

Not true. Female chimpanzees have sex with each other for community building.

Senshi_of_Vision · Post by **Senshi_of_Vision** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:35 am

Ugh where do I start with this? I should use quotes but since my post will be under the one im targeting I hope its okay that I dont cause this maybe long enough of a rant. needless to say the above post and that of Shaunsunflower make me completely leary and nervous of some pro choice people. Just like I cannot stand the more feral Pro life people who base all their assumptions about people who have abortions on the few who do abuse it. or assume that people who have such a proceedure done are evil, I cannot stand those who try to justify abortion by saying things like a child isnt really a child.

Um hello life is not as simple as walking and talking people even germs are alive. And im sorry but a fetus is a living thing even if it has to use its mothers body to sustain life till its ready to be birthed. It is not a thing but a being, that can ultimately become a person. And abortion kills that, most that have abortions know that, you are in a sense killing something inside you. Your taking a life. Whether or not you have a justifiable reason or not its that plain and simple. Theres no way to sugar coat abortion, its just like killing in other ways to me to. When we exterminate any living thing whether it is justifiable to us or not we are taking lives. So enough of that garbage that its not a child or its not alive cause that bs really ticks me off and its determental to the whole point of the Pro choice argument.

I do not like the practice of abortion, but like many things I dont like I dont feel that it should be the same for those who have no such qualms. I believe in pro choice because I know that there are things I am for that others are not and I would never want laws passed based on others beliefs. This country is not as simple as that, too many cultures, too many ways of life for one view to become a law. As for the fathers rights thing I said it before I dont have much sympathy in that aspect due to negative situations ive seen behind it. Such as that lawsuit jerk, but if a man really wants his child then I think legally he should have a way to fight an abortion from stopping it. But the male should be prepared to take care of said child and not bitch if he becomes a single father.

This issue is not black and white but many on both sides in this thread have tried to lean towards that and its sad. I understand strong feelings are going to be had no matter what but reading alot of this makes me scared for the world at times. The extremes of what has been said about who uses abortion, to what classifies life saddens me. As humans many have become extremely insensitive to the fact that life is precious and important. And if your going to have sex and not be smart enough to prepare for it even though its your right to do as you wish with said child In my book you will be taking a life.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:17 am

Whether it's a "child" or not is really irrelevant--though it isn't; it's a fetus. Fetus =|= child. I'm not legally obligated to donate my kidney to someone who's dying of kidney failure, and I'm not obligated to keep a fetus alive that I don't want to.

Such as that lawsuit jerk, but if a man really wants his child then I think legally he should have a way to fight an abortion from stopping it.

...So he should be able to force a woman to CARRY A PREGNANCY TO TERM AND GIVE BIRTH regardless of HER FUTURE, HER WELL-BEING, HER FEELINGS!? Holy fuck. I mean... I can't even imagine how painful it would be to have to go through a court system to fight for my right to abort my pregnancy ON TOP OF deciding to abort in the first place.

Let's just shit all over individual rights, shall we?

How much choice in the matter do you think a man should have? 50%? What if the woman and the man disagree? Who gets to choose? I would hope that most people would say "the mother," so wouldn't just be her choice anyways? Do you want to make a bunch of complex laws so that the government can decide whether your relationship was valid enough to grant a man "boyfriend" status?

And you righteous defenders of men: What if he's abusive? What if she doesn't know him? What if she does not want a child in her life? What if she does not think she is emotionally ready to have a child? What if she does not think HE is emotionally ready to have a child? What if she doesn't want to pay all those medical bills? What if she does not want to put herself through childbirth?

There exists a huge biological inequity here that you all aren't facing: the woman's physical commitment to pregnancy and birth is infinitely greater than his. His participation, biologically, is limited to the act of fertilization. He does not face the risk of death or blindness or irreprerable internal damage like a woman does. He is not essentially incapacitated and unable to work for three or so months. His biological involvement, assuming the act of intercourse took one hour, is 1/6480th of hers.

The law does not exist to protect people's feelings. Sorry, it just doesn't--sad but true, y'all. The abortion law makes no distinction between "husband," "boyfriend," "one night stand," and "rapist," and rightly so. Just because he sperminated her does not mean he gets to force her to have birth. To suggest so is incredibly cruel that I can't even... I don't even have words.

With all due respect, from reading this thread it is obvious that a lot of you really haven't thought about the ramifications of bringing your ideas into reality.

Senshi_of_Vision · Post by **Senshi_of_Vision** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:35 am

Anthy wrote:Whether it's a "child" or not is really irrelevant--though it isn't; it's a fetus. Fetus =|= child. I'm not legally obligated to donate my kidney to someone who's dying of kidney failure, and I'm not obligated to keep a fetus alive that I don't want to.

Such as that lawsuit jerk, but if a man really wants his child then I think legally he should have a way to fight an abortion from stopping it.
...So he should be able to force a woman to CARRY A PREGNANCY TO TERM AND GIVE BIRTH regardless of HER FUTURE, HER WELL-BEING, HER FEELINGS!? Holy fuck. I mean... I can't even imagine how painful it would be to have to go through a court system to fight for my right to abort my pregnancy ON TOP OF deciding to abort in the first place.

Let's just shit all over individual rights, shall we?

How much choice in the matter do you think a man should have? 50%? What if the woman and the man disagree? Who gets to choose? I would hope that most people would say "the mother," so wouldn't just be her choice anyways? Do you want to make a bunch of complex laws so that the government can decide whether your relationship was valid enough to grant a man "boyfriend" status?

And you righteous defenders of men: What if he's abusive? What if she doesn't know him? What if she does not want a child in her life? What if she does not think she is emotionally ready to have a child? What if she does not think HE is emotionally ready to have a child? What if she doesn't want to pay all those medical bills? What if she does not want to put herself through childbirth?

There exists a huge biological inequity here that you all aren't facing: the woman's physical commitment to pregnancy and birth is infinitely greater than his. His participation, biologically, is limited to the act of fertilization. He does not face the risk of death or blindness or irreprerable internal damage like a woman does. He is not essentially incapacitated and unable to work for three or so months. His biological involvement, assuming the act of intercourse took one hour, is 1/6480th of hers.

The law does not exist to protect people's feelings. Sorry, it just doesn't--sad but true, y'all. The abortion law makes no distinction between "husband," "boyfriend," "one night stand," and "rapist," and rightly so. Just because he sperminated her does not mean he gets to force her to have birth. To suggest so is incredibly cruel that I can't even... I don't even have words.

With all due respect, from reading this thread it is obvious that a lot of you really haven't thought about the ramifications of bringing your ideas into reality.

I think Ive covered the whole Abuse thing, Ive had a close family member of mine because of an abusive husband have to have abortion and she knew even though she was doing the best thing for her situation that it was taking a life. And if a woman gets into a sexual relationship now adays (not forced or abused of course) and gets pregnant threw just casual sex she should have to face such a challenge if the father of said child wants to have rights to rear it. The chances of that happening to me isnt really great since ive also stated before I know plenty of men who want women to just abort a child instead of taking responsibility. But I also know a friend of mine who I talked to just the other night who is devestated that a woman he was in love with choose to abort his child because she couldnt handle being a mom. Not because there was abuse not because their was health risk but because she didnt want to be a mom. I told him yes it was her right to do so I would not fault that, but if he had the means to care for said child himself would he have done it and he said yes. So you tell me if a woman knowingly has unprotected sex can carry a baby to term because she just doesnt feel like being a mom she should abort it when she can give it to the biological father and he raises it? How does that not sound barbaric to you? I do not want to assume that you believe Abortion is great but by your posting it sounds like you and Shaunsunflower seem to think its no big deal that a life is being terminated and that offends me. Being pro choice doesnt always mean pro abortion it means allowing people rights but I dont have to agree with said rights. I still think abortion is what it is and its exterminating a living being. Justify or not you cant get around that issue.

Im going to say this one last time then I dont think I need to post anymore to this topic on my feelings about abortion. I think in many of my post ive covered why I feel women have the rights to choose and why ive defended that. Maybe the posts were just too darn long for some to read. I have blantantly said that I am pro choice not because of liking abortion, but do to the fact that women did not always have a voice in what they could do with their bodies. I have also stated several times that procedure to me is something i hope I never have to do myself and all that ive know that had it done it was a last resort. Im a pro choice because I do believe in individuals and females rights though I think its funny im being called a champion of males. I think maybe someone needs to talk to my ex about that one. Either way Ive never said a law should be made where a man can have a woman have his baby but he should be allowed to sue for it, if he wins fine if not fine but if a guy is really determined for a child of his to be brought into this world and can provide for said child, and it was a product of a relationship I dont see why a male couldnt sue. I dont think many rapist are out there that are going to sue for custody of a child considering they would admit they raped said victim. As for the abuse thing Ive always put that in with health reasons as some of the reasons I think abortion can be justified. But Its still taking a life I wont say its murder because I refuse to believe that any female is that cruel to say im just going to get pregnant and murder said child. But a fetus is a living thing, and just like when we slaughter animals for food, kill pests that plague our homes. When we have an abortion we are taking a childs life.

**I had to put this part in an edit cause I admit my emotions took control when I read the response from Anthy.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:09 am

So you tell me if a woman knowingly has unprotected sex can carry a baby to term because she just doesnt feel like being a mom she should abort it when she can give it to the biological father and he raises it? How does that not sound barbaric to you?

It sounds like her choice to do what she wants with her body, honestly. You say "just doesn't feel like being a mom" as if she's flippant about the situation. Being a mother is infinitely more difficult, time-consuming, and exhausting than not being a mother. You're completely ignoring the part where she carries it to term and BIRTHS it. He doesn't have a "right" to be a father. He can be a father with any other woman at any other time. She can't de-motherize herself.

just casual sex she should have to face such a challenge if the father of said child wants to have rights to rear it.

He has no rights to rear it until the baby is BORN. He can impregnate anybody else. And I don't like your slut-shaming language here. In fact, I'm really kind of sick of everyone's slut-shaming language, as if there are legions of slutty teenage girls who have sex 584 times a week without a condom and get 321 abortions a year and don't think twice about it. El oh el. It reminds me of Sarah Silverman's skit:
http://www.cracked.com/video_14395_sara ... ntage.html

you and Shaunsunflower seem to think its no big deal that a life is being terminated and that offends me

Depends on your definition of "life." Abortion is icky, but it's not murder. You can't murder something that needs your body and your nutrients to survive.

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:25 pm

ADMIN MODE:

Guys, this is getting a bit too heated.

1) Anthy and SOV, not a chat room. Please take a break. You're both getting a little too over-heated with this as it is.

2) I'm debating closing this thread, honestly. It's a merry go round of the same arguments repeated over and over, with an obvious split right down the middle. And it just gets more and more heated. We either need to tone it down, or just lock the thread altogether and keep our opinions as is. It's pretty obvious who stands where, and there's no point in trying to change eachother's thoughts.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:38 pm

"You can't murder something that needs your body and your nutrients to survive."

Well, as I pointed out before, you can: a baby depends on a mother's lactation for survival. And, I mean, really.... a baby one day from birth still depends on a mother's body for survival in the fullest sense, and I think we all agree it's a baby and a full-fledged human and killing it is definitely murder.

Anyway, I saw that episode of Sarah Silverman, and the thing about her show is she tends to make fun of really horrible, awful things, like the Holocaust and racism. I think making light of abortion just shows how most people intrinsically know it's a pretty bad thing.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:16 am

a baby depends on a mother's lactation for survival. And, I mean, really.... a baby one day from birth still depends on a mother's body for survival in the fullest sense, and I think we all agree it's a baby and a full-fledged human and killing it is definitely murder.

You're right, Jeff, a baby depends on A mother. Meaning any mother--actually, any caretaker can love and care for an infant, and that's why child formula was invented. A fetus is different than a baby--a baby you can give to any other person to care for. A fetus depends on a very specific person to live, a person who does not owe it anything. It is not illegal to smoke or drink while pregnant, or to endanger the well-being of your pregnancy--it may be unethical in some people's opinions, but it certainly isn't illegal.

I think making light of abortion just shows how most people intrinsically know it's a pretty bad thing.

No, she wasn't making fun of the actual process of abortion. She was mocking the (utterly hilarious and nonsensical) idea that women have tons and tons of abortions and never have a second thought about it, because they're irresponsible sluts and selfish bitches or whatever. Like, the hypothetical girl who has casual sex and 4 casual abortions in a year... because abortions are so much more fun than taking the pill, I guess?

Post by **Tiff** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:13 am

Anthy wrote: Like, the hypothetical girl who has casual sex and 4 casual abortions in a year... because abortions are so much more fun than taking the pill, I guess?

But Anthy, this isn't imaginary. There ARE girls like that. I've GROWN UP around some of them in my current town. I knew several teenage girls who I went to high school with whof ucked around, and each time they ended up pregnant, they got rid of it.

There's a far cry between a house wife who accidentally ends up pregnant and decides she can't/doesn't want to care for it for whatever reason, and some teenage girl who can't keep a lid on her vagina and repeatedly terminates a pregnancy or dumps baby in the trash becuase she's irresponsible.

Anthy · Post by **Anthy** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:09 pm

some teenage girl who can't keep a lid on her vagina and repeatedly terminates a pregnancy or dumps baby in the trash becuase she's irresponsible.

I maintain that these girls need better education and probably a lot of therapy, not to be punished with a pregnancy--abortion isn't really an "easy way out," it's expensive ($400-500 at 10wks), painful, and time-consuming. (And if they're that irresponsible, it's probably better that they don't have a kid, right?) All abortions are equal in my eyes, because I trust other women to make decisions for themselves. I don't know them, I don't know what's right for them, and I'm not going to pretend to be any moral authority. What is the difference, really, between a housewife and a teenager? You hold one above the other, but why? The misogyny evident in y'alls posts is disheartening. ;_;

Post by **Tiff** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:20 pm

Anthy wrote: I maintain that these girls need better education and probably a lot of therapy, not to be punished with a pregnancy--abortion isn't really an "easy way out," it's expensive ($400-500 at 10wks), painful, and time-consuming. (And if they're that irresponsible, it's probably better that they don't have a kid, right?) All abortions are equal in my eyes, because I trust other women to make decisions for themselves. I don't know them, I don't know what's right for them, and I'm not going to pretend to be any moral authority. What is the difference, really, between a housewife and a teenager? You hold one above the other, but why? The misogyny evident in y'alls posts is disheartening. ;_;

First off, being called a misogynist really, really pisses me off. Yes, I'm a woman who hates women, OBVIOUSLY. Come on. This is exactly the kind of hysterical bullshit that's making me want to close this thread.

Secondly, I'm not "holding one above the other". I'm making the point, ONCE AGAIN, that this is NOT a black or white issue, that there are MANY different situations, instances, and such that make up this issue. There are way too many "what-ifs" to count, and that's why this continues to be a merry-go-round of the same tired points over and over.

ADMIN MODE:

And I'm done with it. The same people who have participated in this thread, myself included, have made their points and we just continue to argue over the same thing. That's why threads such as these are hairy and risky to put up. WAY too many personal feelings get involved, and it blows up.

Topic locked. Please, people, do not open up another abortion thread. It's done.