Alcohol/Drugs

Sylphiel · Post by **Sylphiel** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:29 pm

Now... a couple things. I didn't see a topic for this already after I searched, so if there already is one I apologize. Since we've had threads on other controvertial topics like Homosexuality and Pornography (possibly Abortion as well?), I figured it would be okay.

If it's not allowed, feel free to delete. If it is, I just want to say that I don't want this thread to become "DRUGS ARE BAD MMMMKAY?? *lecture*" or "LEIK OMG I GOT SOOOO DRUNK AT THIS FRAT PARTY LAST NIGHT!!!1111" etc. Hopefully we can keep this to some intelligent, non-flamey, opinionated discussion. -_-

I have very different separate opinions on individual issues on alcohol, tobacco, hallucinogens, legalization, benefits, harms, and more, so after you guys put out your thoughts (and I find out if this thread is okay or not), I'll type up a lot of my own...

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 pm

ADMIN MODE:

I have no problem with this thread, because as mentioned, we have had controversial topics in the past.

HOWEVER.

Do NOT turn this into a hissy fit. I myself do NOT approve of drug use. But I'm not going to lecture anyone. I'm also not going to become bitchy about it. Do not post in this thread unless you are capable of giving your opinion in a rational, FACTUAL, and intelligent manner. Just becuase I don't like drugs for personal reasons doesn't mean I'm going to hijack the thread and say "OMG DRUGS ARE BAAD". You all should od the same.

If people get out of hand, I will lock this topic immediately. This is NOT the place to talk about which drugs are great for certain highs, how drunk you've gotten, etc. This is a place to discuss your VIEWS on the subject matter. I have no problem with these views being backed up by stories of personal experience, but don't turn this into a "how drunk/high I've gotten" contest.

Thank you.

Sylphiel · Post by **Sylphiel** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:04 pm

*takes deep breath* Oky, here goes...

Alcohol - I'm a pretty heavy drinker. I think booze is great. It's fun, makes for some nice socialization, and even sometimes help discover more of your self-identity to a point. I feel alcohol should remain legal, and the drinking age should NOT be 21 in the US... it should be lowered back to 18. If someone can go off to war and get killed, but not even legally have a drink, how asinine does that seem? However, though I do partake, I think that drinking has become TOO big of a part of the college scene and identity. I see no problem with drinking regularly or any of that, but in the college town I'm in, it's considered the norm (and you're even considered somewhat out of place in Oswego if you don't) to go out multiple times in even a single weekend, every weekend, and drink constantly. I see this all around me, people drinking way more than I do, and I think I do it pretty often. There's a reason my college was named one of the biggest party schools in the country, and I think it is a bit overdone, and even pathetic to the point that's its emphasized and expected so strongly here as a college student.

Cigarettes/Tobacco - I have never tried either, because I see no benefits or self-discovery involved, and I very strongly dislike the concept. With cigs, I despise how the companies purposely put so many addictive and harmful substances in the damn things for the SOLE fact of keeping people buying and addicted. If you smoke cigs, you're killing yourself, there's no maybe. The same could be said for alcohol, but many people drink without serious harm, and ALL of the people I've known who smoked?..: Died between 50 and 60 of various lung diseases. And for what? No thanks. However, I don't believe it should be illegal, and I'll defend anyone's right to do it.

Marijuana - What can I say? I'm a fan. I don't, however, take the stuff lightly, like I tend to with alcohol. I have not done this until earlier this year, when I finally felt I was with someone I trusted completely enough to experience it with. Even though it's considered a "weak" drug it has pretty powerful effects. They are nice though, relaxing, mood boosting, and the perception alteration is very enlightening to me. The few times I have done so have been very wonderful, and dare I say it, almost spiritual for me. Even though it's considered a "habit forming" drug it is not physically addictive, which is another benefit. I don't fully understand why it is illegal (other than the mind-altering effects), and I don't believe that it should be.

Hallucinogens - I have never done anything this strong, nor will I. BUT, I won't criticize those who do, and I do see the artistic benefits. As said in a part of the song "Third Eye" by Tool, 'If you think drugs have done nothing good for society, go home, find all of your CDs, and burn them.' These drugs have made for some great art, and while I personally would not take the very strong risks involved, I do see many benefits.

As far as the legality of all of these in general is concerned, I consider myself politically a Libertarian so I believe in as little rules as possible and maintaining a strong sense of individual freedom. I also feel that personally, by legalizing more drugs, there would be less killings over the stuff... less people making millions off of others' addictions... and many benefits. It also may help take away the whole "drugs are illegal therefore I'm cool for doing something illegal" thing that a lot of teenagers tend to have. Then again, it doesn't really work with cigs being legal, so who knows. I know there's a ton of negative consequences to legalizing stuff too, but I still feel that there should be a lot more freedom as far as personal use.

Tempest · Post by **Tempest** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:10 pm

Taking drugs and drinking alcohol is a person's choice and as long as they drink responsibly and stay away from the seriously hard drugs (cocaine and such). Yes, some people are pressured into taking drugs by their peers, but you can also choose not to take it again. In this day and age with all the anti-drug organizations in schools and on TV, it's plain ignorant to say, "I didn't know drugs were bad", or "I didn't know drugs can be addictive".

Alcohol is the same way. It's your choice to go back to it. Alcohol denies oxygen to the brain which in turn causes brain cell damage. Alcohol causes liver damage when you drink heavily over long periods of time, but people still drink it.

Me? I avoid both if and when possible, but I don't pass judgment on the people who do smoke and drink. If I believe that they are intelligent enough to know what they are doing or they aren't letting things get out of hand, then I won't say anything.

Since we do want to discuss drugs and such here...
I think Marijuana should be legal. I don't smoke it, but from the research reported on it, I think they should legalize it and tax it as they do beer and cigarettes. Alcohol is far worse than Marijuana since it does more damage to the brain and liver. Many people use it to get high, but it can also be used to ease pain, ease the effects of Glaucoma, relax body tensions, and other beneficiary effects. As it is, I may be in a position that Marijuana could be an alternative treatment (I'll know more the next time I take my eye exam). I don't trust modern day pharmaceuticals, so I'm always looking for an herbal alternative. If the alternatives lead me to Marijuana, then so be it.
Legalizing Marijuana will also free up some space in the American prisons and make room for the real criminals (murderers, rapists, wife beaters, cocaine dealers). Taken moderation and having CLEAR PACKAGE WARNING (like on cold medicine boxes and bottles, cigarette packages, and beer) I think marijuana can be should like any other 'over 18' substance.

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:18 pm

Alcohol:

I'm not a heavy drinker by any means..I have a very low tolerance, but I enjoy a nice drink now and then. I think, quite frankly, getting blasted is just a pointless thing to do. I don't see the point in gettnig so drunk that you actually vomit. I don't like being sick, so I would never go out of my way to make myself feel that miserable.

I think that teens should be educated about alcohol in their own homes. If they believe it's "evil" and such a huge taboo, then they will go out of their way to break that rule and try to forbidden fruit. My boyfriend's father had an impressive liquor collection, and was very strict in educating his children about alcohol, the responsiblities that come with it, etc. As a result, Derek is a social drinker who is extremely responsible and does not let himself or anyone he cares about go overboard. In my own home, by the time we were teens, if we wanted to taste a drink or two, my parents weren't all "OMG NO IT'S EVIL" about it. We were allowed to sip from ourp arents' glasses, or have a small glass of something or other.

So long as there is responibility and care when using alcohol, I really have no problem with it.

Drugs:

I have personal issues with drugs. Part of me really agrees with Tempest...marijuana might as well be somehow legalized, becuase it CAN be used medicinally, and if people use it int he privacy of their own homes, then they aren't out on the streets trying to buy it and shit. But then you would still have those who abuse it, and I don't agree with that.

My brother got involved with drugs in high school, and my family suffered immensely. It was not a good situation. He almost died in a serious car accident becuase he and his friends were high while driving. He finally ended up going tom ilitary school and getting his life straight, and he hasn't touched a drug since..but I remember how hard it all was. That's why I'm so touchy about the subject. I've SEEN my brother high, and I hated it. Being 13 years old and seeing your brother glassy-eyed and high as a kite wasn't fun. I lost a good year of bonding with one of the people I love most.

Seeing or reading about detailed "high" experiences disturbs me. I don't care to know when someone is high, what they did while they were high, etc. I've SEEN what it looks like, I don't like it, so don't describe your experience to me. Again, it's that personal issue.

So there ya go. My thoughts.

SeiUsa · Post by **SeiUsa** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:38 pm

Sylphiel wrote:
Alcohol - I'm a pretty heavy drinker. I think booze is great. It's fun, makes for some nice socialization, and even sometimes help discover more of your self-identity to a point.

Just one question: How exactly does it help you with your identity? Sorry if I'm slow, but could you please go a little further in defining that? I'm just curious.

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:39 pm

SeiUsa wrote:
Sylphiel wrote:
Alcohol - I'm a pretty heavy drinker. I think booze is great. It's fun, makes for some nice socialization, and even sometimes help discover more of your self-identity to a point.
Just one question: How exactly does it help you with your identity? Sorry if I'm slow, but could you please go a little further in defining that? I'm just curious.

Ditto. I'd like to know the same.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:19 pm

For the record, I'm writing this before reading all of yours, except for Tiff's Admin comments.

Alcohol: I don't care for drinking. Beer tastes foul to me and hard liquor is too much of a shock to the system. I do however like wine, especially red, especially a dry Chianti, for accompanying certain meals. If I'm eating a really good piece of beef or lamb or fish, I'll take half a glass and sip it as I eat. But it's purely as an enhancement to flavor and texture, and not actually a beverage--it doesn't wash down the food or quench my thirst. I'll keep a glass of water or soda to do that.

My experience with drugs is limited to say the least. I tried marijuana once (yes, I inhaled), and didn't care for it. It burned my throat and set me coughing. I waited for the high to kick in, but it simply didn't do it for me. The only other time that would qualify was when I was given valium for oral surgery to remove my wisdom teeth. I was awake for the operation and remember being quite spacey--my jokes were weirder than usual, and that's saying something. Valium does promote amnesia, though, so my memory isn't perfect (that's why I went for it over full anesthesia--what do I care how much pain I'm in if I can't remember it afterwards?) But I was never high, per se. I wasn't ecstatic.

Perhaps harder drugs would give me that level of ecstasy (perhaps the drug ecstasy itself), but from what I've heard, the ones that are powerful enough for that are the ones that screw up your brain. My tongue-in-cheek statement is that my mind is so powerful that mere chemicals don't serve to change it greatly.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't like such a thing. I would like to try a drug that gave me the same elation I get from sexual climax. More so, I would like one that gave me the sense of universal perfection I get from watching episode 200 of Sailor Moon, or the triumphal feeling I get when listening to the 1812 Overture, or the sense of personal satisfaction I feel when I'm sitting in an arboretum on a beautiful day when the sun is shining and it's just the right temperature and you just that god you're alive and had a chance to experience this. Put that in a capsule and I'm there. I'm doubtful that can be done.

As far as the political aspects of drugs are concerned: legalize it, man! My libertarian feelings come out in force. The War on Drugs is a failure and a waste of taxpayers' money. More to the point, everyone has the right to take an action they want to that doesn't hurt others. If someone drives under the influence, or commits a crime on drugs, let's throw the book at them, but don't stop people from fulfilling a desire.

It's the same problem I have with the anti-smoking crusade. I see these stupid Truth commercials and I'm thrown into a rage. If people want to smoke and people want to sell cigs, no government has the right to stop them. I feel the most sympathy for the demonized heads of the companies. They should be able to sell and advertise their product as they see fit and at the price they can get it for. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, the idea that the government knows better than me about my body is offensive to me.

Sylphiel · Post by **Sylphiel** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:27 pm

Well, its hard to explain which is why I didn't go much into it. And I don't want to make myself sound stupid. But I guess the best I can say is that parts of me that I'd unconsciously bury or repress I'd rediscover sometimes in that alternate state. Also, publically, I'm an extremely shy person, and sometimes parts of me I'm otherwise too afraid to show come out when I drink, hence others discovering more of my identity too. I don't NEED to have alcohol to socialize (especially not with close friends), but it does help. It's amazing what a simple lack of inhibitions can do for expressing yourself. Granted it can be harmful too, especially in the cases of what I guess are referred to as the stereotypical "angry drunks/mean drunks", but for me it's usually not like that.

A lot of people consider alcohol and drugs as purely recreational, but being in altered states often holds a deeper meaning to me. Again, it's hard to explain. Then again... it's hard for people to explain their religious feelings too, I guess, and as I said it can be a more vague spiritual-like thing for me. Many religions of the worlds use drugs in rituals and as a huge part of their spiritual identity.

EDIT:

Sailorasteroid wrote:My experience with drugs is limited to say the least. I tried marijuana once (yes, I inhaled), and didn't care for it. It burned my throat and set me coughing. I waited for the high to kick in, but it simply didn't do it for me. The only other time that would qualify was when I was given valium for oral surgery to remove my wisdom teeth. I was awake for the operation and remember being quite spacey--my jokes were weirder than usual, and that's saying something. Valium does promote amnesia, though, so my memory isn't perfect (that's why I went for it over full anesthesia--what do I care how much pain I'm in if I can't remember it afterwards?) But I was never high, per se. I wasn't ecstatic.

Perhaps harder drugs would give me that level of ecstasy (perhaps the drug ecstasy itself), but from what I've heard, the ones that are powerful enough for that are the ones that screw up your brain. My tongue-in-cheek statement is that my mind is so powerful that mere chemicals don't serve to change it greatly.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't like such a thing. I would like to try a drug that gave me the same elation I get from sexual climax. More so, I would like one that gave me the sense of universal perfection I get from watching episode 200 of Sailor Moon, or the triumphal feeling I get when listening to the 1812 Overture, or the sense of personal satisfaction I feel when I'm sitting in an arboretum on a beautiful day when the sun is shining and it's just the right temperature and you just that god you're alive and had a chance to experience this. Put that in a capsule and I'm there. I'm doubtful that can be done.

Everyone's brain reacts differently to drugs, and from what Dan told me as a warning the first time we did it, a lot of people don't get high the first time they try pot. It seems like you didn't. I did, but it took quite a while. The euphoria was there for me, and enhanced everything around me... from the beauty of the outside world, to music, to visual effects.

As far as your example of drugs not giving you the euphoria of an orgasm for you, well, everyone's brains react differently to that too. I'm tempted to go into some very personal stuff example-wise, but I'll refrain since this thread's supposed to be about our views and less about experiences. If you'd like I can PM you, Asteroid.

Chibisteven · Post by **Chibisteven** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:52 pm

Um. I have no problems with someone drinking as long as they don't drive or become really volient. But, I'll never drink because, I have enough problems as it is.

As for smoking. I don't care, just don't it in my house or in front of me. Never will smoke.

As for other drugs. I don't feel need a drug to be high unless it's prescribed by my doctor.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:18 pm

Sylphiel wrote: I'm tempted to go into some very personal stuff example-wise, but I'll refrain since this thread's supposed to be about our views and less about experiences. If you'd like I can PM you, Asteroid.

That would be an interesting discussion, thank you, yes.

NameGoesHere · Post by **NameGoesHere** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:20 pm

I know I may seem a bit young to have opinions on such things, but I have seen the effects of both drugs and alcohol in the lives of those around me, so I have formed a few thoughts on the issue.

When it comes to alcohol, I have no big moral qualms with it. To me it is mainly an issue of self-control and responsibility. As long as you don't put anyone else at risk, by say, driving a car while intoxicated, I see no problem with alcohol. While I certainly cannot understand why some go so far as to make themselves sick, I can understand those who drink socially, or just to unwind.

Alcohol really isn't for me, though. I've tasted several different kinds, straight up, and the flavor was enough to turn me away. I could see myself enjoying wine, or mixed drinks, but in very limited quantities. To me, loosing inhibition is a horrible thought, especially in the presence of others. I am quite the control freak when it comes to my person.

I view marijuana in much the same way. While, like almost anything else, too much of it can be harmful, the occasional smoker is committing no more of a crime in my eyes than the occasional drinker. The fact that it is illegal baffles me, really. The justice system wastes so many resources prosecuting and jailing marijuana users, when the focus needs to be on dangerous criminals.

There are some hallucinogens that I do not feel strongly against, but legalizing them is still a bit of a fuzzy issue with me. I haven't been able to make up my mind.

One drug I can stand firmly against is methamphetamine. Based on the ingredients alone, I am surprised that it doesn't kill all the users the first time out. To me, meth is nothing more than an addictive poison. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my opinion.

Cigarettes are sort of a two sided issue with me. Tobacco is just fine and dandy, but the chemicals that cigarette companies are putting into their products are just insane. Tobacco has been around for a long time, but I feel that it didn't become ridiculously dangerous until these additives were tossed in.

The problem with smoking in public places is where I get a bit defensive. I have nothing against smokers, but exposure to cigarette smoke causes me to choke and makes me sick to my stomach. I don't cough as a statement against smokers, I cough because my throat is actually closing up. While I don't care if someone wants to smoke in most public spaces, restaurants, in my opinion, should be smoke free. It's not hurting anyone to wait for about an hour or so during a meal, so I think it is merely a common courtesy not to light up in a restaurant.

There's my three cents on the topic. I hope I didn't ramble... ^^;

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:26 pm

NameGoesHere wrote:It's not hurting anyone to wait for about an hour or so during a meal, so I think it is merely a common courtesy not to light up in a restaurant.

Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on smoking sections in restaurants?

And I agree with you about Meth. Nasty stuff, that.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:34 pm

In New York we have a no-smoking-section law. You can't smoke at all in a restaurant or bar. To me, this is a violation of the rights of the restaurant owner. If the owner of an eatery wants to let its patrons smoke, that's up to him or her. Heck, if an owner wants to *require* his patrons to smoke, that's up to them. If people don't want smoke, it's as if that restaurant doesn't exist to them.

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:38 pm

Well... I'd call myself really young for this ubt... I'm kinda uptight...

Alchohal: I don't really think that's it's horrid... just don't drive when drinking, drink wisely, and don't get trashed off your ass and puke your guts out. I wouoldn't try it, until i'm 21... but I don't really have much of a good opinoin of it... my parents drinkn about daily, but not so they get drunk. I don't really want to offend anyone, but I don't really want to lose my self-control if I drink a lot, I like having my main sanity... I'll get put to sleep for surgeries though. pain is NOT fun for me... I don't take it well...

Pot: ... like I said, I"m against it really... I want to follow the law, I think others should, and yes, the 'war on drugs' is failing miserably. but, I think people for chornic users should be sent to a rehab clinic... because if they keep doing htat they'll most likely end as hobos on the sidewalk... that, and it effects optential children you may have.

Cigs: Er... I don't want ot smoke. it takes a TON of cash out of your pockets, since prices keep rising, and it's extremely addictive. it's legal, but I have a low opinion because it's really unhealthy... my Grandma can't breathe without an oxygen tank around her. Three of my dad's siblings smoke, and it just scares me what all has happened with Grandma, and they aren't really trying to stop...

Other: ... Like I said with pot, if it's illegal, I think you shouldn't do it. Many of htem are really deadly to the human body...

NameGoesHere · Post by **NameGoesHere** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:57 pm

Tiff wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on smoking sections in restaurants?

Smoking sections are great, but they should be done right. Many restaurants, back when smoke free was less common a few years ago, just had a four foot dividing wall between the smoking and non-smoking sections. Cigarette smoke carries easily, and if your going to bother with separate spaces, it should be planned out better. Otherwise, you may as well just sit everyone together.

Some nicer restaurants have separate rooms, with HVAC systems that do not circulate the air from smoking into non, and those work well. Unfortunately, setups like that are impractical for smaller facilities, and too costly for many local-run places to use. In those cases, smoke free is best for both the restaurant and the patrons, in my opinion.

Of course, it really should be up to the restaurant. As Sailorasteroid said, I think that owners should be able to choose. If they do not want separate sections at all, that is up to them. All I ask is that there be a sign on the front door, so I can choose another place to eat.

Butterscotch · Post by **Butterscotch** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:06 pm

Alcohol: I don't care for the taste much, so aside from toasts at weddings and such, I refrain. However, I have a much more personal reason for not drinking: My father is a recovering alcoholic. He's been sober for at least ten years, but its still hard for him.
I love my father, and I am proud of the fact the he was able to turn his life around. But I've heard that alcoholism can run in the family. I don't know if its true or not, but why take that chance?
If others want to drink, that's fine, but to be frank, I don't see the need to get drunk. I can have a fine time sober, why can't everyone?

Smoking: My mom was a heavy smoker for years, and it seems to be the most pointless of drugs. She finally kicked the habit, (and ironically, has begun drinking more than she used too)

Pot:Honestly, I've never tried it. I am a bit curious about it, but my father also struggled with pot addiction. He once told me that its harder for him to deal with that than his alcoholism.
I do think that it should be legalized, though. It does have medicinal properties and some people can handle it responsibly.

I don't approve of anything stronger. At all.

Well, there you have it, kids. Thanks to my mom and dad, I'll stay clean and sober all my life. Everyone should have parents like mine.

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:09 pm

NameGoesHere wrote:
Tiff wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on smoking sections in restaurants?
Smoking sections are great, but they should be done right. Many restaurants, back when smoke free was less common a few years ago, just had a four foot dividing wall between the smoking and non-smoking sections. Cigarette smoke carries easily, and if your going to bother with separate spaces, it should be planned out better. Otherwise, you may as well just sit everyone together.

Some nicer restaurants have separate rooms, with HVAC systems that do not circulate the air from smoking into non, and those work well. Unfortunately, setups like that are impractical for smaller facilities, and too costly for many local-run places to use. In those cases, smoke free is best for both the restaurant and the patrons, in my opinion.

Of course, it really should be up to the restaurant. As Sailorasteroid said, I think that owners should be able to choose. If they do not want separate sections at all, that is up to them. All I ask is that there be a sign on the front door, so I can choose another place to eat.

I agree. *Nods* I think smoking sections would be well ventilated, and far away enough from the non-smoking so it doesn't disturb.

And I also agree with Asteroid. Hell, if I own a restaurant, I want the right to accept any patrons I want.

Sylphiel · Post by **Sylphiel** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:11 pm

Butterscotch wrote:Smoking: My mom was a heavy smoker for years, and it seems to be the most pointless of drugs.

I agree... I don't see the point of cigarettes at all.

A highly addictive, pointless drug... woohoo!

(again, just my opinion, I still think people have the right to if they want)

Post by **Tiff** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:15 pm

Sylphiel wrote:
I agree... I don't see the point of cigarettes at all.

A highly addictive, pointless drug... woohoo!

(again, just my opinion, I still think people have the right to if they want)

Although I personally despise cigarettes, if you think abuot it, caffeine's pretty damn similar. It's addictive, pointless, and not good for you at all. I've known people who are so addicted to caffeine they actually go through withdrawel without it and turn into raging beasts.

My Dad, thank god, stopped smoking since he had his heart attack. My mom and brother have cut down SEVERELY, and are going to try to quit. I always hated that they smoked ><