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Post by Tiff » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:09 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote: I want to taste that before I believe it. Every single food will taste exactly the same without trans fats? But more to the point, it's about the fact that they want to use force of law to stop me from making choices about my life. It's not about whether it's bad for me, it's about whether I want it.
I said "Or". Just as good OR exactly the same.

You're not prohibited from making choices. If all restaurants give up trans fats, then you choose not to go, and instead buy foods in the grocery store that have them. Cook yourself. Restaurants are a luxury, not a necessity.

If you want it, go buy it..but it's not necessary for you to have to have it in a restaurant.

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:17 pm

Tiff wrote:
Sailorasteroid wrote: I want to taste that before I believe it. Every single food will taste exactly the same without trans fats? But more to the point, it's about the fact that they want to use force of law to stop me from making choices about my life. It's not about whether it's bad for me, it's about whether I want it.
I said "Or". Just as good OR exactly the same.

You're not prohibited from making choices. If all restaurants give up trans fats, then you choose not to go, and instead buy foods in the grocery store that have them. Cook yourself. Restaurants are a luxury, not a necessity.

If you want it, go buy it..but it's not necessary for you to have to have it in a restaurant.
But what if I want to start a restaurant based just around trans fatty foods? And what if the restaurants that exists want to cater to me instead of to the health conscious? Suppose the law went the other way, and said that only tasty, unhealthful foods could be served. Would you then say that all the people who want to eat other foods should stay out of restaurants?

I'm also afraid of this being the thin end of a wedge. Today it's trans fats, next it's a rule saying no dishes over 1000 calories, or a law that every dish has to have a certain amount of vegetables, like some sort of damned culinary affirmative action. I want crap that tastes good, and it's my unalienable right to get it from people willing to sell it to me.
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:25 am

Basically, the point is not whether trans fats are good/bad for you, the point is that the government is making the choice for you, rather than letting the restaurant and/or the customer decide. If a restaurant decides that they wont serve anything with MSG/transfats/etc then more power to them. That's their choice, their right. Likewise, if they decide to serve EVERYTHING with MSG/transfats/etc then that should be their right too. It shouldn't be up to the government to decide what they can and cannot serve. It should be up to the restaurant to decide what they will and will not serve, and up the customer to decide what they will and will not buy. The farthest I would let the government go with this is making restaurants disclose to the customer if their products contain things like transfats/msg/etc in them, but that's it. But if (hypothetically) I want to goto a McTransfats, I should be able too, dammit. =P

Basically what this law is trying to take away is the freedom of choice. The freedom of a restaurant owner to serve whatever type of food he or she wants, and the freedom of a customer to eat that food. If all the restaurants want to ban together and decide to not serve transfats anymore, then so be it. That is their right, their choice. But the government has no right to make that choice for them.

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Post by peachvampiress » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:14 am

AnimeGuru0
If all the restaurants want to ban together and decide to not serve transfats anymore, then so be it. That is their right, their choice.
But wouldn't that also be taking away a customers right to choose to eat unhealthy foods? If all the resturants decided not to use foods with transfats they'd be forcing me to eat healthier food (dear God no!) instead of letting me choose.

Personally, out of all the things in the world to get upset about, I think this is one of the most ridiculous. If the food tastes the same and you can't tell the difference, plus it keeps the cost of health care down, it's probably not a big deal.
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Post by Starscream » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:38 am

peachvampiress wrote:AnimeGuru0
If all the restaurants want to ban together and decide to not serve transfats anymore, then so be it. That is their right, their choice.
But wouldn't that also be taking away a customers right to choose to eat unhealthy foods? If all the resturants decided not to use foods with transfats they'd be forcing me to eat healthier food (dear God no!) instead of letting me choose.
Customers do not have a right to eat at a restaurant; such a thing is a privilage of living in the society we have right now. There are plenty of countries where restaurants are exclusive to the rich, where the poor have to deal for themselves, in which case they could eat all the transfats they want.

Personally, I find the idea of government regulating foods like this laughable. Cigarettes and alcohol, which are potentially just as dangerous to your health, are sold freely and with little regulation except for age, yet trans fats are suddenly evil because more people have access to them. Even though living a life on trans fats increases the risk of someone ending up in the hospital payed by my taxes (but that's another matter entirely), the government should NOT tell us what we can and cannot eat; that's getting far too close to facism or Cuban-style "communism" for my taste.
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Post by Panda » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:44 am

I don't understand why this is a bad thing. OMG someone wants you to be healthy. Can't have that. As much as we'de like to think this is an anarchy, it isn't. Just flow with it. Consideriong we're the fattest country in the world (or at least one of them) the law probably won't pass for long anyway.


Personally, I find the idea of government regulating foods like this laughable. Cigarettes and alcohol, which are potentially just as dangerous to your health, are sold freely and with little regulation except for age, yet trans fats are suddenly evil because more people have access to them

This is a much better arguement.

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:05 am

peachvampiress wrote:AnimeGuru0
If all the restaurants want to ban together and decide to not serve transfats anymore, then so be it. That is their right, their choice.
But wouldn't that also be taking away a customers right to choose to eat unhealthy foods? If all the resturants decided not to use foods with transfats they'd be forcing me to eat healthier food (dear God no!) instead of letting me choose.
See, here's the difference: if all the restaurants make a no-trans-fats policy, some maverick could still come along, open the Trans Fat Cafe, advertise, and, if people want foods with those fats, it will thrive and make money. If people don't, then no one will go there and it will go out of business. But even if it does, someone else can try again tomorrow.

If the government passes a law against them, it means that if you sell trans fats, the government will tell you to pay a fine, and if you don't pay it, they'll tell you to close down, and if you don't close down, they'll arrest you, and if you don't go with the arresting officer, they'll shoot you.

No one has the right to patronize a specific type of business, but everyone has the right to run whatever type of business they want.
Personally, out of all the things in the world to get upset about, I think this is one of the most ridiculous. If the food tastes the same and you can't tell the difference, plus it keeps the cost of health care down, it's probably not a big deal.
And if I'm willing to pay those health care costs, why force it on me? And again, I'm more worried about the precedent--today trans fats, tomorrow all fats.
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Post by Panda » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:10 am

Why on earth would you want something like that in your body? They're getting rid of Trans-fats because they have zero nutritional value. They wouldbn't get rid of all fats and carbohydrates because humans need them to survive.

For christs sake dude come up with a better arguement then that.

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:37 am

Panda - As I already mentioned, it's about rights and freedoms, you know, what America is based and founded on?

Peach - I go with Asteroid's explanation. The one about the maverick coming along. For example, there are no shops in Las Vegas (that I'm aware of) that sell Argentinan/Uruguayan Matte Tea. So does that mean the right to go to a restaurant and drink Matte has been stripped from me? Nope, cause someone could always come along and make StarBucks: Matte if they wanted to. There's a difference between the right to and availability. I hope that made sense.

Hopefully this law doesn't pass. Again, the government has no right to say what you can and what you can't serve in a restaurant.

Basically it comes down to this: If regular more healthy fats are JUST as good as transfats, and healthier for you, then those restaurants that don't sell transfats are going to do better anyways, because people will want to eat lots of good food and live longer and not be so fat, that's just the way the market works. Demand will shift, and those restaurants that sell transfats will have to rethink their strategy to keep making money (either they'll go out of business or change the ingredients in their food). There's no point in them wasting Asteroid's taxpayer dollars (since it is just in New York, I can't say "my" ~_^) on something so trivial that the market will adjust to anyways, AND that they have no business doing.

Roar! lol Yeah I'm very anti this law. It's the principle that's being violated here. Also Starscream's argument about smoking and drinking was good as well.

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Post by Starscream » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:44 am

AnimeGuru0 wrote:Basically it comes down to this: If regular more healthy fats are JUST as good as transfats, and healthier for you, then those restaurants that don't sell transfats are going to do better anyways, because people will want to eat lots of good food and live longer and not be so fat, that's just the way the market works.
Eh, I don't know about that. Fast food places, while offering up alternative foods as a small fraction of their menu, are still doing exceedingly well, and there are no signs that the obesity epidemic is getting any better as a result of the healthier choices offered, suggesting to me that people are still buying the same garbage food as they were before the nation found out there was a problem.
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Fry: "I refuse to testify on the grounds that my organs will be chopped up into a patty."
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:03 pm

My statement was based on a hypothetical If situation, being if the more healthier fats are just as good as transfats. From your observation, obviously they aren't just as good (probably when it comes to taste and cost). I know most stuff on fast food dollar menus are absolutely horrid for you, but they're only a dollar, that's probably why people buy them, especially people on a tight schedule and a budget. Also, a quarter pounder tastes better (to a large percentage of people) than a salad.

But if the government's goal is to make people more healthy, why not just make a law requiring all people to work out at the gym? Again, it should be up to the consumer and the supplier to determine whether transfats will be used in food, not the government. That's my two cents. :oops:

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Post by Starscream » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:20 pm

AnimeGuru0 wrote:My statement was based on a hypothetical If situation, being if the more healthier fats are just as good as transfats.
You mean on a taste level? If that were the case, I'm sure many restaurants wouldn't mind changing the ways they cook food ^^;

The fact of the matter is that trans fats are cheaper to produce than saturated fats, and yield longer shelf lives and shorter refridgeration time required to keep the foods they're in from going bad. The result is a product that fast- and "junk-"food manufacturers jump upon greedily; low-cost plus high shelf life means a cheap product that can be passed on to the consumer for a decent profit. You won't find many sit-down restaurants using them primarily because a.) many use fresh, natural ingredients that contain natural fats in them, so injecting artificial ones is unnecessary, and b.) any trans fats used in frying, sauteeing, and other cooking methods would be miniscule compared to what you find in a fast-food meal. Thus, you pay more for your food, but it's healthier.
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Judge: "Yes. What? You say if I testify I’ll be killed? Oh. It’s for you." (hands the phone to Fry)
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Fry: "I refuse to testify on the grounds that my organs will be chopped up into a patty."
Judge: "Ah, the 67th Amendment."
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Post by Tiff » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:49 pm

o.O Isn't this only in New York? So if you don't live in New York or dno't plan on opening a restaurant in New York..how does this affect you?

Honestly, maybe I'm the only one who doesn't care. ^^;; I rarely eat that garbage anyway, becuase I want my body to be clean and healthy. I've LIVED the fatty, MSG-filled, trans-gross life...and I gained a lot of weight, was always sick, and lethargic. I feel so much better now that I"ve cut it out.

And I understand that ya'll's arguments are not so much about the health issue, it's about the freedom issue. But again...how does it affect you if you don't live/go to New York?

If you want to open a restaurant, is it not your choice to open it somewhere else, becuase you don't like the law? How abuot...NOT opening it in New York?

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:05 pm

As I said to you via IM:

AnimeGuru0: yeah! it's unamerican *slams fist* =P

Also I saw this story on CNN -_-;;;

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:49 pm

New York was the first locality to ban somking in restaurants, and in enclosed areas, but that has spread. And as the city goes, so soon goes Long Island. And I do go to NYC a few times each year. So I would say it does affect me somewhat.
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Be careful with this one, there is a bit of a pun involved. Dr. Spooner described his visit to a castle: "In the center of the fortress was the Palace Court. The gated entrance to this area was the court palace."

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Post by Tiff » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:57 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:New York was the first locality to ban somking in restaurants, and in enclosed areas, but that has spread. And as the city goes, so soon goes Long Island. And I do go to NYC a few times each year. So I would say it does affect me somewhat.
Well, it's your choice to go to NYC, is it not? You said this was all about choice...

Meh. *shrugs* it doesn't really affect me, so I don't know what else to add other than what I've already said. XD

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Post by the*blue*girl » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:51 pm

im agreeing with tiff here. trans-fats are SO bad for you, they do so much shit to your body. i don't see the point of trans-fat anyways, so why shouldn't they ban it?

and saying that this takes away american freedom doesn't seem a completly logical arguement to me. there are laws in america, so maybe this should be one of them. drugs are illegal, so should you say thats "taking away american freedom" too? so saying that they shouldn't ban trans-fats, which are horrible for you, is kinda like saying they shouldn't ban drugs, in my opinion.

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:37 am

the*blue*girl wrote:im agreeing with tiff here. trans-fats are SO bad for you, they do so much shit to your body. i don't see the point of trans-fat anyways, so why shouldn't they ban it?
Because they have no right to? Because it's unamerican? Because it's ridiculous that they're spending taxpayer money on such a trivial thing? Because it can have a potentially severe effect on certain aspects of that economy? (especially the fast food industry) I can list at least 10 other reasons as to why they shouldn't ban transfats.
and saying that this takes away american freedom doesn't seem a completly logical arguement to me. there are laws in america, so maybe this should be one of them. drugs are illegal, so should you say thats "taking away american freedom" too? so saying that they shouldn't ban trans-fats, which are horrible for you, is kinda like saying they shouldn't ban drugs, in my opinion.
Ok, America was founded on the basis of freedom. And I will sum up this notion in one sentence: You (as an american) have the right to do whatever you want, as long as you do not infringe upon the rights of others. Laws are in place to defend these rights. What you're saying is "Well, there are laws in america, so they should be able to make whatever laws they want." No. That's not how it works. That's not what America was founded on. Why not ban High Fructose Corn Syrup? That's horrid for you too. How about artificial sweeteners (such as those used in diet cola)?? Frankly, it's not for the government to decide, and we shouldn't be setting a precident by arbitrarily banning things because "Zomg it's bad for you."

And as for your argument about drugs. You have no idea how many people DO believe that drugs should be made legal (same argument, i have the right to do whatever I want, as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others). That's a huge stance in the Libertarian party. Heck, why is drinking alcohol alright and smoking pot isn't? They're pretty much are the same in my eyes. However, transfats and illegal drugs are NOT in the same playing field. The argument for banning drugs is that not only do they harm you, but your use of them can harm others (infringing on the rights of others). That of course is debatable. Transfats not so much.

But really, I just don't even care anymore. Tiff was talking to me earlier, and she was like "Well, you don't live in New York so it doesn't really affect you". Thank God she's right. I don't think Nevadans would put up with this crap.

If New York is really concerned about transfats, here are some more acceptable solutions:

-Education programs to inform consumers of the health risks of transfats.
-PSA explaining "ZOMG DON'T EAT TRANSFATS".
-Encouraging companies to stop using transfats. Giving some type of incentive for those that cut back.

All these would be a somewhat iffy way to spend taxpayer money (but hey, 90% of the government's spending of taxpayer money is iffy, so what the hell), but at least it wouldn't make our founding fathers (and mothers! =P) roll over in their graves.

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Post by Starscream » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:50 am

Or how about just warning people of the transfats content in their food? The best way for people to make healthy choices in their life is to be EDUCATED about them, not to be sheltered from the "bad" choices by the government.
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Judge: "Yes. What? You say if I testify I’ll be killed? Oh. It’s for you." (hands the phone to Fry)
Roberto: (On the phone) "And the other hamburger will also be made of your lungs. So long, pal."
Fry: "I refuse to testify on the grounds that my organs will be chopped up into a patty."
Judge: "Ah, the 67th Amendment."
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Post by Tiff » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:13 am

Starscream wrote:Or how about just warning people of the transfats content in their food? The best way for people to make healthy choices in their life is to be EDUCATED about them, not to be sheltered from the "bad" choices by the government.
Now see, that I do agree with. Why not have on the menu or on a sign, "Our food contains Trans Fats" and a brief explanation? I know that chinese restaurants all over the country post whether or not they have MSG becuase a lot of people are allergic (like me) or just plain don't want to eat it.

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