yet another reminder why natural disasters are deadly

[Jeff]

*ahem* If you will allow me to be the voice of dissent...

I don't think that western nations in general, and the United States in particular, are doing enough for the people affected by the tsunami. The U.S. has spent far more on it's pre-emptively launched war with Iraq. I don't like that, and what it says about this country.

[AnimeGuru0]

The fact that western nations and the United States in particular are pretty much the ONLY nations doing anything shows something of our generosity. The bottom line is we're not obliged to do anything. But we do something anyway.

The United States has already devoted a huge sum of money to the disaster not counting donations to private organizations like the Red Cross.

And with that said the war in Iraq has nothing to do with the tsunami disaster so I don't know why you brought up. If we're going to go down that route the money were spending in the Indian Ocean coast region will probably save thousands of lives and help survivors recover. Likewise, the war in Iraq probably saved thousands of more lives and gave the opportunity to the Iraqi people to have free elections and to decide for themselves how to run their country.

I think it's time to stop looking the gift horse in the mouth.

[Tiff]

I'm in agreement with Guru.

I'm sorry, but with the U.S., it's always "You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't."

If we try to help too much, we're putting our nose into things and playing "big brother".

If we don't help enough, we're selfish, insensitive assholes.

I'm sorry, but no. This isn't a fucking competition. I'm tired of hearing "Well, this country donated so and so. What about the U.S.?!". Why is it suddenly a contest? There's no fucking trophy. One country is not better than the other becuase they may have donated more money.

I haven't been able to turn on a radio station without hearing about that station's fund raising weekend for the tsunami victims. People ARE helping. What theh ell do you want? Shall we ignore our own nation's problems and poverty, and give them ALL of our resources?

I'm so tired of all of this, really.

[Sailorasteroid]

Bob, you've got to stop reading my mind, because you're stealing all my best posts.

Also, in addition to the national gifts, it was in the news a few days ago that 30% of all Americans gave privately to tsunami relief. The spirit of America is a lot more than what our government does, and it is a generous spirit.

[peachvampiress]

Tiff

I'm sorry, but with the U.S., it's always "You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't."

*redneck voice* You stole ma quote :/Secret Window Reference:

I haven't been able to turn on a radio station without hearing about that station's fund raising weekend for the tsunami victims. People ARE helping. What theh ell do you want? Shall we ignore our own nation's problems and poverty, and give them ALL of our resources?

God, yes. It seems to be pretty bad down here in crappy old southern B.C. EVERY store I go into there are no less than twenty big bright colourful posters in one area asking for donations. PLEASE GIVE TO THE TSUNAMI RELIEF FUND AND ONLY THE TSUNAMI RELIEF FUND. JUST IGNORE THE HOMELESS PEOPLE IN CANADA AND THE DIASBLED CHILDREN WHO LOST THEIR FUNDING.

Just post one poster that lists a bunch of different places where you can give money and not twenty that are advertising how your particular business is giving more than your competitor. And if you're working at a check outlane/cash register, DO NOT get snitty with me when you ask me to donate money and I say no.

If I feel like donating money, I'll do it because I want to, not because the Wal-Mart told me to do it.

[Akarui Kibuno]

Peach, your lines in bold made me think of something that was brought up yesterday at home during some talking.

Well, my Dad brought it up anyway and he's not the best one to talk about this, but sometimes he has some points. In France, like in many other countries, we have homeless people (and remember it's winter), hmm, the government wastes money in many infrastructures that will never be used, and so on. One T.V. show called "Combien ça coûte ?" (i.e. : how much is it worth ?) even has the habit to calculate how much the government wastes per year and it's for the moment around 500 million euros (even more in dollars).

So, in the end, France is helping another country (with homeless and starving people) but can't do the same in France (to homeless and starving people). I already said (I think) I'm not against helping, but I mean, our government isn't really doing it the good way I think.

Though I work (YAY NOW I DO WORK LOL) in a postal center and I sort out the letters. I can tell you, LOTS of people donate. Yesterday there was even a "special TV show" on a channel about the tsunami that lasted something like 2 hours (and it made me cry anyway because of some stuff) and at some point, they showed people in a ONG (like the Red Cross, err, you know, those associations ^^;;;; I don't remember the word sorry) opening the letters from people donating money.

It was amazing... maybe they did that on purpose but they showed a lady opening some letters and she had : a 10000 euros check, a 5000 euros check and someone even sent old francs (former currency before 2002) , and it was 40000 francs, which is now 6097 euros. My sister also told me that if one student in her school donates ONE euros, some Council (the regional council I think) donates 1000 euros per euro collected (have 100 students donate one euro... and calculate. It's amazing). When we were dealing with the donating letters (we just sort them out but there were soooooo many...) , one of my colleagues even said that it didn't make her want to donate because she was seeing too many letters. So yeah, French people (I'm saying French people because saying France would imply the government does it when it doesn't) donate. A lot.

I think also the problem that was raised was that some countries promised money, and by some standards I think when they have promised something they have to send it, but they haven't so far so the countries needing help are wondering what's happening.

Just a story though, the one that made me cry: a Swedish man had lost his 2 years old son and his wife during the tsunami. But the little boy was found alive and four days after the event, after having posted photos of the boy on the internet to find his family, they managed to find the father in a hospital and brought the boy to the father. The father's tears made me cry T_T

[Jeff]

The bottom line is we're not obliged to do anything.

That is one way of looking at it. I feel that this country, with it's high standard of living, is obliged to help.

The United States has already devoted a huge sum of money to the disaster not counting donations to private organizations like the Red Cross.

Huge is a subjective term. I think that the United States has the capability to do far more than it currently is.

And with that said the war in Iraq has nothing to do with the tsunami disaster so I don't know why you brought up. If we're going to go down that route the money were spending in the Indian Ocean coast region will probably save thousands of lives and help survivors recover. Likewise, the war in Iraq probably saved thousands of more lives and gave the opportunity to the Iraqi people to have free elections and to decide for themselves how to run their country.

I brought up the Iraq War as an example of how much this country is capable of spending, even on something that *really* doesn't merit it as much. Free elections? That's news to me. But this isn't about Iraq, really, so I sense that I should get off of that topic.

If we try to help too much, we're putting our nose into things and playing "big brother".

I don't think that the rest of the world views the U.S. as the self-appointed world police for the reason that we champion humanitarian causes.

Why is it suddenly a contest? There's no fucking trophy. One country is not better than the other becuase they may have donated more money.

Exactly; it's not a competition, which is all the more reason to show our sincerity at a time like this.

I'm aware that I could be accused of hypocrisy. After all, how much have *I* donated? I just think, though, that if this country as a whole was just a little bit more concerned about the welfare of human beings in other parts of the world, we would have a lot more respect.

[Cardcaptor Takato]

"That is one way of looking at it. I feel that this country, with it's high standard of living, is obliged to help."

So, we're obliged to help with the tsunami victims but not obliged to help the people in Iraq?

"Huge is a subjective term. I think that the United States has the capability to do far more than it currently is."

If we want to get into more debt than we currently already are, sure....just don't come crying to me when you can't find a job because we had to have more job cuts in the future.

"I don't think that the rest of the world views the U.S. as the self-appointed world police for the reason that we champion humanitarian causes."

So, what makes you think we're obliged to give "so much more" money to other countries if we're not the self-appointed world police?


"Exactly; it's not a competition, which is all the more reason to show our sincerity at a time like this.

I'm aware that I could be accused of hypocrisy. After all, how much have *I* donated? I just think, though, that if this country as a whole was just a little bit more concerned about the welfare of human beings in other parts of the world, we would have a lot more respect."

So, if it's not a competition, why did you bring up the point about Iraq? And if the rest of the world actually gave a crap about Americans, then we would have a lot more respect whether we gave money or not.

[Tiff]

Exactly; it's not a competition, which is all the more reason to show our sincerity at a time like this.

..That makes no fucking sense.

If it's not a competition, then why not take the sincerity and help we've ALREADY OFFERED?

I fail to see how that statement makes any sense of all. It's nonsensical.

That is one way of looking at it. I feel that this country, with it's high standard of living, is obliged to help

Wow. So if I suddenly won the lottery, and became far wealthier than everybody on this forum, then am I obliged to give each of you a cut, becuase you may need it?

So, we're obliged to help with the tsunami victims but not obliged to help the people in Iraq?

Exactly. Is it becuase it's a sudden and unexpected disaster that they deserve more help? No. I don't think so.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

I see both sides of the issue. No one person is wrong. Yes, the US could give more help. But at the same time, we have given, and by telling us that what we've given isn't worth anything, it's telling us that in the future we might as well not help at all.

As for the Iraq issue, the reason we've given more for that is because it's not a gift. That's all our doing, with the help of various other countries. It's not even the same principle, so we can't really compare them.

[Sailorasteroid]

The bottom line is we're not obliged to do anything.

That is one way of looking at it. I feel that this country, with it's high standard of living, is obliged to help.

Hmm. . . that's what's called socialism. There are two problems with it. The first is that it stops people and nations from producing. If people know that if they make a lot of money, it's going to be taken away from them, then they're not going to make money. The second problem is that even if it could me made to work economically, no one would ever get to be materially satisfied and happy.

Now, I can understand how you feel that people ought to give more to those who need it, but people both produce and give a lot more when you say "You can give whatever you want" than when you say "You have to give." That's counterintuitive, but true, and wishing that people would change is going to be doomed to frustration and futility.

[Jeff]

..That makes no fucking sense.

If it's not a competition, then why not take the sincerity and help we've ALREADY OFFERED?

I fail to see how that statement makes any sense of all. It's nonsensical.

I don't believe that this country has been sincere in helping the tsunami victims. We didn't even make up our minds to donte anything until other countries already had. That was my point. We look like we are helping just because it's *socially* obligatory, not because we are a moral nation and want the best for everyone in the world.

Wow. So if I suddenly won the lottery, and became far wealthier than everybody on this forum, then am I obliged to give each of you a cut, becuase you may need it?

I'm talking about a moral obligation. Does your employee desperately need money to pay for his son's operation? It's all relative.

So, we're obliged to help with the tsunami victims but not obliged to help the people in Iraq?

If by "help the people in Iraq" you mean kill thousands of civilians just so another shitty oligarchy can take the place of Saddam's regime, then yes.

Exactly. Is it becuase it's a sudden and unexpected disaster that they deserve more help? No. I don't think so.

Nor do I. We can't help every person in the world, but a disaster of this size, that has affected so many people, deserves our attention. I also think that there are other places we should be focusing our efforts on, like, say, Sudan.

[Tiff]

I don't believe that this country has been sincere in helping the tsunami victims. We didn't even make up our minds to donte anything until other countries already had. That was my point. We look like we are helping just because it's *socially* obligatory, not because we are a moral nation and want the best for everyone in the world.

I'm talking about a moral obligation. Does your employee desperately need money to pay for his son's operation? It's all relative.

If by "help the people in Iraq" you mean kill thousands of civilians just so another shitty oligarchy can take the place of Saddam's regime, then yes.

Nor do I. We can't help every person in the world, but a disaster of this size, that has affected so many people, deserves our attention. I also think that there are other places we should be focusing our efforts on, like, say, Sudan.

So you're saying its our obligation to help, but that it shouldn't LOOK like an obligation, that instead, it should look sincere, despite the fact that you still believe it's our obligation?

Mmkay. Sure, that made LOADS of sense. -_-

If I had a business, and my employee desperately needed money for a son's operation, it would not be my obligation to give it to him. I would have the choice to do it or not. I would not be OBLIGATED to do so. If the employee were someone I knew well, then I might help him out. If not..then..I'm sorry, but it wouldn't be my problem.

The bit about Iraq is purely your opinion. Not everyone holds that belief about what's happening over there.

ADMIN MODE: Enough about Iraq, people. It's a completely different issue, and principle. Leave the talk about Iraq out of this. </ADMIN MODE>

They HAVE our attention. You're acting as though we're not doing ANYTHING. We're donating. Stop deciding how much we should donate, and just accept the fact that we are. You wanna make up the difference? Be my guest.

[peachvampiress]

Okay, the people in my town are now just milking the Tsunami disaster for all it's worth. The last two local newspapers I've picked up have all had school children from my area on the front page with headlines saying the kids in this particular school "just wanted to do their part". I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believeing that a hundred some odd third graders all felt like donating money of their own free will at the same time. I think it was more like their principle told them they had to bring it in.

But today's newspaper was just a bit too much. It had some six year old boy looking sad and holding a VERY empty and VERY large jar that had the words Mountain Bike! in childish letters written on it. The caption below it said that the kid had spent years saving up for a new bike, but decided to donate all the money to the tsunami thing. I showed the paper to my mom and said "Awww, that's so sad. Don't you just want to go out and bye him a mountain bike?" -_-

I think people are just using kids to try and convince more people to donate more of their money.

[Tiff]

I DESPISE when people use kids to make their donation campaigns seem more "cute" or more "honest".

Half the time, these kids don't know what the hell they're donating to, or why. All they're told is "bring canned goods" or "bring a dollar", and that's it. They can't GRASP that it's for a bunch of people affected by a giant tsunami (yeah, let's take an entire science lesson to get that term through to kindergarteners..and even then, they'll forget the word after an hour of PE). Once they do understand that it's for some "sad, poor people", they'll feel nice about it for a few minutes, and then it will be forgotton. That's how kids function, and think...something as huge as a natural disaster doesn't matter to them in their childlike world unless it directly affects them.

And that's the way it SHOULD be. Let them be kids, god damn it.

[Lady of the Light]

I believe that yes, the more wealthy nations should give money to those caught in the tsunami disaster, because they couldn't help all this devastation that happened. The earthquake that caused it couldn't be helped, and the people that died were at no fault. I believe that this is different than helping another nation that was involved with civil wars, or something like that. They got themselves into that mess. The people in Asia, however, had no say in what happened to them.
I also believe, however, that not all these donations should go to those in Asia. We must remember the other people in this world that need that money as well. Not just on our home front (I.E The homeless people, and the disabled children who lost their funding in Canada) but also in other places. Africa, for example. That continent might need our help the most. But since we've been bombarded with pictures of all the suffering that's happened over there, we begin to get used to it, and forget. I heard somewhere that more people in Africa die of A.I.Ds in one day then all the Tsunami victims put together. Don't quote me on that, I can't remember, but it was something crazy like that. While we have suspended the debt on all the Asian countries, we still continue it with Africa. This should stop.
That's my view on things.

[peachvampiress]

Tiff

Half the time, these kids don't know what the hell they're donating to, or why. All they're told is "bring canned goods" or "bring a dollar", and that's it.

Or, if it's the public elementary school I went to, it was "The person who brings in the most money wins a BIG PRIZE" (which always turned out to be crap like cd players which most people had already). They just tell the kids that if they bring in money for this disaster/poor person/school repairs then they get a prize. It doesn't teach kids to give out of kindness, it teaches them to give so that they'll get something in return.

[RoastedTwinkies]

But today's newspaper was just a bit too much. It had some six year old boy looking sad and holding a VERY empty and VERY large jar that had the words Mountain Bike! in childish letters written on it. The caption below it said that the kid had spent years saving up for a new bike, but decided to donate all the money to the tsunami thing. I showed the paper to my mom and said "Awww, that's so sad. Don't you just want to go out and bye him a mountain bike?" -_-

I think people are just using kids to try and convince more people to donate more of their money.

Actually recently in Alberta, there was this girl who had $400 (she was saving up for a puppy) and she donated it to Red Cross for the tsunami relief. On the news, she was saying when she saw all the people on TV, she didn't care about the puppy and she wanted to help out the victims of the tsunami. A week later, someone bought her a puppy -_-

[peachvampiress]

RoastedTwinkies

Actually recently in Alberta, there was this girl who had $400 (she was saving up for a puppy) and she donated it to Red Cross for the tsunami relief. On the news, she was saying when she saw all the people on TV, she didn't care about the puppy and she wanted to help out the victims of the tsunami. A week later, someone bought her a puppy -_-

How old was the girl, because I'm having a hard time picturing a six year old with $400 and the free choice to choose poor people she doesn't know over a puppy.

[Tiff]

RoastedTwinkies

Actually recently in Alberta, there was this girl who had $400 (she was saving up for a puppy) and she donated it to Red Cross for the tsunami relief. On the news, she was saying when she saw all the people on TV, she didn't care about the puppy and she wanted to help out the victims of the tsunami. A week later, someone bought her a puppy -_-

How old was the girl, because I'm having a hard time picturing a six year old with $400 and the free choice to choose poor people she doesn't know over a puppy.

Unrealistic shit like that is usually the result of the following:

Mom: Look, honey. See the news?
Girl: Huh? *looks up from Bratz Dolls bought for her by mother last night*
Mom: See all of those poor people? Their houses got ruined, and now they're poor. A lot of people are dying. Isn't that sad?
Girl: ...Yeah. *looks back down at her dolls*
Mom: Wouldn't it be nice if we helped them?
Girl: *shrugs* I guess. *plays with doll's hair*
Mom: Well, you know..you sure did save up a lot of money for that puppy...but I bet these people don't have a puppy.
Girl: *blinks and looks up* ...Uh huh.
Mom: I know! *claps hands and smiles* Let's be nice, and give them the money for FOOD! Wouldn't that be NICE?!
Girl: ...Uh....
Mom: Everybody will be so proud of you! Mommy will be so proud of you! Maybe the news will come and talk to you!
Girl: ...yeah..
Mom: Oh, what a good girl you are! Aren't you sweet for thinking of that all by yourself! *Takes girl's money and calls up all her friends, who in turn call up the news station*
Girl: ...I wanted a puppy....

There you go, ladies and gentlemen.