The terror in Russia

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:28 pm

http://www.cnn.com

It's so tragic. Those poor babies...I'm watching CNN right now, and the look of terror on their faces..*shakes head* My heart goes out to these people.

Why were we not made known of this until a week after it happened?! Here we're still talking about Bill Clinton's heart attack, and we hear of this tragedy a week later?

*Shakes head* I say we push 9-11 to where it belongs-in the healing process, aka, the "getting past it" process-and put our prayers toward THIS tragedy instead.

EDIT: i've just been informed that it has been on the news...but barely, until now. That still irks me. what in holy hell...*shakes head again*

Ni-ban Neko · Post by **Ni-ban Neko** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:04 pm

It hasn't been given nearly the amount of press it deserves. I saw the story over the weekend, but I did not know there were pictures. And I'm fighting tears because of them... I don't think I could handle seeing live footage.

And I just want to yell at everyone involved, from President Putin on down. You don't fucking storm a school with innocent children being held under explosives inside, you just don't do it!

God. People... there are no words. No words.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:12 pm

I've heard a lot about it on the daily radio broadcasts, and I've been as horrified as I was about the Spanish railway bombing and 9-11. I don't think we need to relegate any of the past terrorist events to secondary status--we need to keep focused on all of them at the same time.

I like the reaction of Russian president Vladimir Putin, when asked by a Western reporter why he doesn't sit down and negotiate with the Chechen terrorists, asked why the US doesn't invite Osama Bin Laden to the White House.

Even if you could negotiate with these people, would you really want to? It galls me to think of such tactics winning anything, even a seat at a negotiating table.

We talk a lot here about unpopular views and the right to speak them. As far as I'm concerned, the moment you decide to take the life of disinterested people in furtherence of your ideas, or to take the life of a person who has taken no action against you but simply disagrees with you, you have lost the right to be heard, and indeed lost the right to breathe free air. We need to specifically deny the demands that terrorists make. If they say to pull out troops, send more in. If they say give them land, take some of theirs. If they say to follow these codes and laws, we need to break those laws in front of their faces. And all the time, we need to kill them as they try to kill us, and capture them as they surrender. I hope Putin is as agressive as he can be in striking down the rebel terrorists, and I hope we can continue doing so here as well.

yoshmaster5 · Post by **yoshmaster5** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:26 pm

It dosen't really phase me... I know, it's horrible. I've just heard too much death in the news to be hurt by it a lot... and I am... Why can't they just pull out of Checheia? All it is is a land with few recources, and everything looks like a WWII devestated city. *shakes head* why must humans always result to war?

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:47 pm

We talk a lot here about unpopular views and the right to speak them. As far as I'm concerned, the moment you decide to take the life of disinterested people in furtherence of your ideas, or to take the life of a person who has taken no action against you but simply disagrees with you, you have lost the right to be heard, and indeed lost the right to breathe free air. We need to specifically deny the demands that terrorists make. If they say to pull out troops, send more in. If they say give them land, take some of theirs. If they say to follow these codes and laws, we need to break those laws in front of their faces. And all the time, we need to kill them as they try to kill us, and capture them as they surrender. I hope Putin is as agressive as he can be in striking down the rebel terrorists, and I hope we can continue doing so here as well.

How do you think most of this shit got started in the first place? People do that to eachother, which breeds hatred, which breads attacks like these.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:59 pm

I saw this report on the news a lot. I was both horrified and disgusted that terrorists will stop for no one to get what they want. It pisses me off to see that a lot of them got away.

I couldn't handle all the live footage either. They edited out the really graphic images, but it was still really hard to watch. They showed body bags and lots of kids on stretchers that were too big for them.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:11 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:How do you think most of this shit got started in the first place? People do that to eachother, which breeds hatred, which breads attacks like these.

It gets started when people take their religion too seriously, and start thinking they have the right to things they don't. It may take two to tango, but you only need one to start a war.

There's a big difference between denying rights to killers and denying rights to people just because you disagree with them. We've dealt with corrupt governments for so long that we've forgotten that a government can be righteous.

As far as I'm concerned, 100% of the blame for these murders lies on the people who planned and the people who committed them. The Russian government, people who sympathize with the people in power, and most of all the children, are all blameless. And I don't think the terrorists deserve any mercy. I hope they all experience a lot of pain before they die.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:19 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:
ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:How do you think most of this shit got started in the first place? People do that to eachother, which breeds hatred, which breads attacks like these.
It gets started when people take their religion too seriously, and start thinking they have the right to things they don't. It may take two to tango, but you only need one to start a war.

There's a big difference between denying rights to killers and denying rights to people just because you disagree with them. We've dealt with corrupt governments for so long that we've forgotten that a government can be righteous.

As far as I'm concerned, 100% of the blame for these murders lies on the people who planned and the people who committed them. The Russian government, people who sympathize with the people in power, and most of all the children, are all blameless. And I don't think the terrorists deserve any mercy. I hope they all experience a lot of pain before they die.

And I hope you experience a lot more life before you die. Your naivete astounds me sometimes. When did anyone say it was the government's fault? And you'd be surprised just how seldom religion is the main factor. People push back when pushed. I'm not trying to take any blame away from the terrorists, but you're ideas will only add to the problems.

mizangelamy · Post by **mizangelamy** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:22 pm

Why they pick a school from all places that could do their terror on thats sick and sad!

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:26 pm

mizangelamy wrote:Why they pick a school from all places that could do their terror on thats sick and sad!

Because it's effective. It got their message across, after all.

*last post for me in this topic for a while, to avoid the chat roomy-ness*

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:54 pm

I made a memorial banner for the forums. I'll probably leave it up a week or so. I think these children (and the adults that died, too) need to be remembered, and deserve the recognition.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:58 pm

Tiff wrote:I made a memorial banner for the forums. I'll probably leave it up a week or so. I think these children (and the adults that died, too) need to be remembered, and deserve the recognition.

*can't see the banner at all*

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:00 pm

RoastedTwinkies wrote:
Tiff wrote:I made a memorial banner for the forums. I'll probably leave it up a week or so. I think these children (and the adults that died, too) need to be remembered, and deserve the recognition.
*can't see the banner at all*

I dunno what to tell you. Try refreshing. I know Kisu sees it fine.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:20 pm

Refreshing doesn't work. I dunno what's up. I posted a screencaps to show you what I see. However, Sailorasteroid sent me a copy of the banner. Regardless if we get this to work or not, at least I saw it and I must say the banner is lovely and that's a sweet thing you did for those kids, Tiff.

Here's what I see (cropped and shrinked because I care about the people with dialup)

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:21 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:And I hope you experience a lot more life before you die. Your naivete astounds me sometimes. When did anyone say it was the government's fault? And you'd be surprised just how seldom religion is the main factor. People push back when pushed. I'm not trying to take any blame away from the terrorists, but you're ideas will only add to the problems.

With all due respect, please don't condescend to me. I've had plenty of life experience--life goes far beyond just how you deal with people, but includes what principles you stand on irrespective of what other people think. I've dealt with people who for some reason or another have tried to take something beyond their rights, and I've found that you can't deal with them by words or by appeasement, you've got to stop them and make it clear that if they want something they've got to play by the rules.

Now, to answer your points in order: it's the terrorists who think the government should be out of power, but if they want that, then vote them out. Or leave. When they won't let you leave, then you can think about using force to get away

Religion isn't always a cause, but it is in the Russian case, where the rebel terrorists are all Muslims.

And as for agressive response creating worse problems, can you explain to me why giving a reason to be upset to people who already want to kill you for no reason is going to make the situation worse? I don't understand the mentality.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:32 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:
ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:And I hope you experience a lot more life before you die. Your naivete astounds me sometimes. When did anyone say it was the government's fault? And you'd be surprised just how seldom religion is the main factor. People push back when pushed. I'm not trying to take any blame away from the terrorists, but you're ideas will only add to the problems.
With all due respect, please don't condescend to me. I've had plenty of life experience--life goes far beyond just how you deal with people, but includes what principles you stand on irrespective of what other people think. I've dealt with people who for some reason or another have tried to take something beyond their rights, and I've found that you can't deal with them by words or by appeasement, you've got to stop them and make it clear that if they want something they've got to play by the rules.

Now, to answer your points in order: it's the terrorists who think the government should be out of power, but if they want that, then vote them out. Or leave. When they won't let you leave, then you can think about using force to get away

Religion isn't always a cause, but it is in the Russian case, where the rebel terrorists are all Muslims.

And as for agressive response creating worse problems, can you explain to me why giving a reason to be upset to people who already want to kill you for no reason is going to make the situation worse? I don't understand the mentality.

I'm not being condescending towards you. However, you do need more real world knowledge. With all due respect, you make your points through this marvelous ideal that appears all black and white, with no gray areas.

So, to address your points: If someone doesn't want to listen to rules, they're not. No matter how much you try to force them to. Sometimes it's good (called revolution), sometimes it's bad (called terrorism).

How do you vote out a dictator? How do you vote out the leaders of other countries who attack you?

Until it's reported that the terrorists attacked because the school was not Muslim, religion isn't a factor. So they were all muslims. If a group from the United States were to attack someone, and this group happened to be all Christian or Buddhist, or Hindu, or any religion for that matter, does that make it religious? Their motives may be backed by something entirely non-religious, they may just share a common factor of being Muslim.

They don't want to kill for no reason. They're killing to make a statement, an argument. They're killing because it's all they can do to change anything. So, rather than make the conditions better, they just get worse. Which leads to more violence.

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:34 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie: I completely agree. There are no black and whites about situations like this. There are many factors we probably don't even KNOW about yet.

Roasted Twinkies: Thank you. I just felt so bad about it...maybe becuase I work with kids. But it just tore me up.

Jed-kun · Post by **Jed-kun** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:38 am

I saw it on TV resently, it was really sad. Really the only difference between Terrorists and Freedomfighters is who wins in the end.
Anywho, back to the point, I found a redeeming quiality amongst some of the terrorists. When they found out that they were taking children hostage some refused... unfortunatly they were shot and killed.

Ni-ban Neko · Post by **Ni-ban Neko** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:52 am

Religion had nothing to do with this - it was all political. The terrorists were from Chechnya, a region of Russia that has been trying to break off and form its own country for several years now. I suspect the attack was related to the independence movement - it isn't the first time that they have resorted to this kind of thing. They hijacked and crashed two planes only two weeks ago. They took over a theatre a year ago, and that incident also ended with over 100 people losing their lives.

jupiter23 · Post by **jupiter23** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:49 pm

I did see this on TV when it happened, and it just disgusted me. I don't care what time period it occurs in or where it happens or what the circumstances are, children should never ever be brought into this sort situation. To attack a school full of civilians and children is way beyond low.