Haruka, Michiru, and Senshi Religions

[Rainbow]

Despite being an atheist, I've wondered sometimes whether or not Haruka and Michiru (or only one of them) are Christian. It's not meant to insult them or say they're "not lesbians," as shown by recent events in some liberal churches it is very possible to be gay and Christian. Now some of this may come from the fact that I've only had one year of Japanese study, so some of this stuff may be altered in the subtitling process, but here are my reasons to guess this:
1) In one of the early episodes of S (I forget the number), Michiru tells Unazuki and Usagi that the first kiss was between Adam and Eve. (the Japanese wording may have used different names, but that's what the subtitles said)

2) In episode 198 in SailorStars, one of them says something about going to hell because they betrayed the other Senshi. Again, since I don't know much about religion in Japan other than that they like to dabble in various ones, this may not have been referring to the Christian idea of Hell.

And no, I wouldn't use Haruka wearing a cross on a necklace as a reason, because for one thing I've heard that crosses are used as cool decorations in Japan, probably in the way some Americans might wear yin-yang signs.

As for the irony, I would find it very amusing if that were true, given that it's the Christian fans (mostly) who get so hateful of the relationship the two Senshi have with each other.

Though, of course, any guesses on the religions of the Sailor Moon characters is just going to be theories and speculation, as the only character whose religion we know for certain is Rei's. (Shinto; she's a priestess and I'm guessing is the most religious of the Senshi) Though there is the fact that on more than one occasion, Usagi prays to "kami-sama," though I'm not sure what religion's god she's referring to. Maybe she has her own religion where her god is love itself; especially since that's the power she draws on when she herself becomes a messiah-type figure.

[Starscream]

1) In one of the early episodes of S (I forget the number), Michiru tells Unazuki and Usagi that the first kiss was between Adam and Eve. (the Japanese wording may have used different names, but that's what the subtitles said)

2) In episode 198 in SailorStars, one of them says something about going to hell because they betrayed the other Senshi. Again, since I don't know much about religion in Japan other than that they like to dabble in various ones, this may not have been referring to the Christian idea of Hell.

I wouldn't use these as arguments to support that they are Christians, however. First of all, the majority of Jewish believers also recognize Adam and Eve as the first couple (there's a branch that thinks the first woman was someone called Lilith, but I don't know much more beyond that), and something tells me that Islam does, too. Secondly, concepts such as Adam, Eve, and hell are VERY widely known, even to atheists, so their knowing of them might not be indicative of any one particular faith.

probably in the way some Americans might wear yin-yang signs.

And anhks, but I digress ^^;

given that it's the Christian fans (mostly) who get so hateful of the relationship the two Senshi have with each other.

I don't mean to bite your head off here, but there are PLENTY of non-Christians who are opposed to homosexual relationships. Further, there are lots of Christians who are not opposed to it, and plenty who don't care about the relationship between two cartoon characters ^^;;

Though there is the fact that on more than one occasion, Usagi prays to "kami-sama," though I'm not sure what religion's god she's referring to. Maybe she has her own religion where her god is love itself; especially since that's the power she draws on when she herself becomes a messiah-type figure.

I doubt that Usagi - being the immature young lady she is - would be able to form the abstractness necessary to believe such a faith system, nor would I think her so self-righteous that she worships herself ^^;; "Kami-sama" is used for most monotheistic "God"-like dieties, so my guess is that the writers of the show have her worshipping a "generic", monotheistic religion. It could also be Shintoism, since according to this, all their gods are referred to as "kami". Again, just adding to the speculation, but her religion is probably nothing out of the ordinary for a Japanese high school girl.

[Rainbow]

I didn't know that about the Jewish religion, so thank you for the information. And I didn't mean that Usagi would think she's god, I meant that she would think that love is god because it gives her power. If she was self-righteous she wouldn't be one of my 5 favorite Senshi, her humble innocence is one of the things I like about her.

I also didn't just think up the idea myself, the idea can also be found on Ravenwood's Discussions of Sailor Moon. She may have better knowledge of the Japanese speech than I do, too.

[Tiff]

-_- I can't say I spend too much time even bothering to think about these things, but I have to back up Dave here on the use of "kami-sama". I think it's pretty much a general use for a deity-like being.

It never actually really shows Usagi PRAYING to anybody. At most, she'll say something along the lines of, "Oh, my god!" or "God, please don't die!". She never actually stands there, hands folded, saying something like "God, please do this and this and this and this...oh, and this. Amen."

Of course, let us all keep in mind that this is a cartoon aimed a little girls, and I highly doubt the anime creators had religion in mind at all when they made it.

[Rainbow]

Not to be too nitpicky, but she DOES ask "kami-sama" to help Misa get better in episode 185.

And there is religion in Sailor Moon:
1) Rei's a Shinto priestess who goes to a Catholic school with nuns.
2) Priests and nuns who are clearly Christian are shown in various episodes.
3) All the symbolism in the S season with the Holy Grail and the Messiah; this is pretty obviously copied from things in the Bible, not to mention Chibi-Usa-sama's dream about Hotaru being crucified.

Then again, I don't know much about religious stuff in America, much less Japan, but one book on anime I have said that anime creators like to stick religious symbolism in for fun, like in Gundam Wing when Heero is lying on the table that looks eeriely like a cross. (Eva doesn't count because it's probably not aimed at the same age group Sailor Moon and probably Gundam are)

[Sailorasteroid]

It's difficult to say; I don't think the series has much to say on religion. It's not like they're going to come out and say, "All the moon people were gods, so all those other religions are wrong." I think based on the penultimate episode of S where [spoiler]Uranus and Neptune kneel before Super Sailor Moon[/spoiler]that they were pretty set into the knowledge that Usagi was going to be the goddess of the world. Of course, no where in Sailormoon does it talk about the origin of the world before the Silver Millenium, nor about anything that happens after the end of the Nemesis war, and while it does talk about extending everyone's life (granting immortality?), it doesn't it say what happens after death--are you reincarnated in Crystal Tokyo? (I like to think so. ^_^)

A lot of young people around the senshi's ages I've talked to have said that they disavow all established religions, but they still believe in god. Usually monistically. I could see the girls of Sailor Moon doing something like this. Or they might not even think about religion--it's a lot more of an issue in America than in Japan, I think.

[LadyFlameSniper]

I don't mean to bite your head off here, but there are PLENTY of non-Christians who are opposed to homosexual relationships. Further, there are lots of Christians who are not opposed to it, and plenty who don't care about the relationship between two cartoon characters ^^;;

Wow I'm glad I'm not the only person who still keeps this in mind. (reffering to non-Christians opposed to same sex relationhips and Christians who aren't)

Starscream is right... And I don't think Naoko or the anime creatros put THAT much thought into the other senshi's religons (besides Rei) and things like Haruka or Usagi wearing a cross.

Also remember that being nailed to a cross was a common way of punishment during Biblical times, and Messiah is Hebrew for savior. MAYBE they were intended to be symbolic Christian references but they don't HAVE to be linked to Christianity.

[RoastedTwinkies]

I'll have to join the bandwagen with most people here. Yes, Rei's religion is obviously Shinto, but it's not something that the series focuses on. It's just sort of there in the background.

[Tiff]

Not to be too nitpicky, but she DOES ask "kami-sama" to help Misa get better in episode 185.

And there is religion in Sailor Moon:
1) Rei's a Shinto priestess who goes to a Catholic school with nuns.
2) Priests and nuns who are clearly Christian are shown in various episodes.
3) All the symbolism in the S season with the Holy Grail and the Messiah; this is pretty obviously copied from things in the Bible, not to mention Chibi-Usa-sama's dream about Hotaru being crucified.

*blink* I already said she says things along the lines of "God, please don't die!", which is basically the same thing you're saying.

And I never said there isn't any religion in SM. I said that i'm sure the creators weren't giving it THIS much thought.

Im pretty much saying EXACTLY what LadyFlame Sniper is:

Starscream is right... And I don't think Naoko or the anime creatros put THAT much thought into the other senshi's religons (besides Rei) and things like Haruka or Usagi wearing a cross.

The Shinto aspect is there becuase it's a defining part of Rei's character. If the creators felt that the other senshi's religions were important, they'd have made it as big of a point to include it.

[Rainbow]

Tiff: Sorry, I think I was taking things too literally.

By the way, this is the book that I said has some things about religion in anime in general, though it has some stuff about Sailor Moon:
Anime Explosion! The What? Why? & Wow! of Japanese Animation by Patrick Drazen

[AnimeGuru0]

Actually, in episode 185, Usagi goes

"Onegai, kami-sama. Misa-chan o tasukete."

Which translates to "Please, God. Help Misa." (I think VKLL translated it as "Please God, save Misa". The shot shows her with her eyes closed, hands clasped, and head bowed. In this instance, she isn't just using the word "God" as a filler word or a word to emphasize emotion, as in "God, please don't die!"

In this instance, she is actually referring to God the divine being (although the divine being of what religion remains to be seen), and yes, she is praying.

However, this isn't indictive of any type of religion or faith that Usagi may or may not have. In times of desperation or times of total helplessness, it's totally reasonable (and somewhat expectable (yeah i think i made that word up)) for even the most dedicated atheists to ask help from God for some type of help. (And then when that time has passed, totally reasonable and expectable (pbuh) for this same person to return to their full on athiesm.) It happens all the time in hospital settings. Like I said, Usagi could be a total athiest, but since she has no control over the situation, she resorts to praying as a last ditch effort to do ANYTHING she can, and I'm sure you'd find that there are a great many people who would do the same (who are not Christian or strong in their faith).

[Tiff]

*shrug* Whatever. Either way, I really am not that concerned with the issue.

[Sailorasteroid]

In times of desperation or times of total helplessness, it's totally reasonable (and somewhat expectable (yeah i think i made that word up)) for even the most dedicated atheists to ask help from God for some type of help.

That's a common conception, but I know some hardcore atheists who have just trained themselves never to think like that, and are quite proud of their godlessness. I doubt any of the senshi are true atheists. Even Ami would probably just be a secular humanist, and that's if you're stretching. Because they've actually witnessed supernatural events and affected the destiny of the world, they "know" that it's not a completely mundane world.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

I wouldn't use these as arguments to support that they are Christians, however. First of all, the majority of Jewish believers also recognize Adam and Eve as the first couple (there's a branch that thinks the first woman was someone called Lilith, but I don't know much more beyond that), and something tells me that Islam does, too.

I can explain that one, somewhat. Lilith was Adam's first wife, but I don't believe she was human. She was an angel that fell from Heaven, and later became a demoness (succubus, to be specific). After being banished (for seducing Adam in the first place, if I recall correctly), Eve was created. But that's not the point here.

To be completely honest, I think that this is taking it just a tad too far. This is a cartoon, aimed for children. Religion was never even intended as a factor. To put it bluntly, I'd rather consider religion in the real world, as opposed to a fantasy one.

[Rainbow]

In times of desperation or times of total helplessness, it's totally reasonable (and somewhat expectable (yeah i think i made that word up)) for even the most dedicated atheists to ask help from God for some type of help.

That's a common conception, but I know some hardcore atheists who have just trained themselves never to think like that, and are quite proud of their godlessness. I doubt any of the senshi are true atheists. Even Ami would probably just be a secular humanist, and that's if you're stretching. Because they've actually witnessed supernatural events and affected the destiny of the world, they "know" that it's not a completely mundane world.

Well, I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, so much that I never had to "train" myself not to think that way. I do somewhat pray to various characters (Taiki, Chibi-Usa-sama, sometimes my dog Diana) to help me, but it's usually because that character has been in a situation similar to the one I want help in (usually in trying to not get too overwhelmed by people noise) or because I just plain have respect for them. I suppose I'm basically praying to myself and my own will sometimes, too.

But, that's getting off-topic, sort of. Sorry for that personal digression. You know, the one I wonder about is Sailor Pluto, actually, considering that even more than Sailor Moon, she is very much a "Time Goddess" type of character, at least in the anime. Also, I wonder if some religions got changed in the conversion of the world's center to Crystal Tokyo; maybe people worship Neo-Queen Serenity then? (don't mind me, I just like to speculate about Crystal Tokyo)

[peachvampiress]

Rainbow

maybe people worship Neo-Queen Serenity then? (don't mind me, I just like to speculate about Crystal Tokyo)

That's a good point, but since they refer to her as Queen Serenity, I'm not sure. Plus I can't see Usagi wanting people to treat her like a goddess.

Something I noticed though, in the last chapter of the Sailormoon manga, Usagi and Mamoru get married in what looks like a Catholic church (their's a crucifix behind them as they're kissing) and on the previous page, it showed that they're in Crystal Tokyo since you can see the Crystal tower. I don't know if this really means anything.

Personally I think Naoko puts some things in her storys because she thinks they look pretty or sound cute, and not because they have some deep symbolic meaning to them.

[Rainbow]

That's a good point, but since they refer to her as Queen Serenity, I'm not sure. Plus I can't see Usagi wanting people to treat her like a goddess.

Something I noticed though, in the last chapter of the Sailormoon manga, Usagi and Mamoru get married in what looks like a Catholic church (their's a crucifix behind them as they're kissing) and on the previous page, it showed that they're in Crystal Tokyo since you can see the Crystal tower. I don't know if this really means anything.

Personally I think Naoko puts some things in her storys because she thinks they look pretty or sound cute, and not because they have some deep symbolic meaning to them.

1) Well, who knows how they view her. Sometimes people are viewed in ways they don't want or intend, even if it's in a positive way. Like people thinking Usagi's a Messiah, possibly. She might be too polite to argue with them as their Queen.

2) Actually, according to that book I mentioned, Christian-style weddings are chic in Japan, but only in a surface manner. (that would also explain Wedding Peach, too)

3) That's probably true about her, given a bunch of the Senshi attack names and the ludicrousness of the name "Sailor Moon" itself. But I'm mostly talking about the anime (which, incidentally, has more religious references), and I've heard that probably some of the people involved in it ARE interested in doing symbolism, even if it contradicts the manga. An example of this would be Ikuhara-san, who was also involved in Utena (which has TONS of symbolism). I've heard that he/she (I've heard both, and I don't know the first name by memory) added extra symbolic stuff into SuperS as well.

[Tiff]

An example of this would be Ikuhara-san, who was also involved in Utena (which has TONS of symbolism). I've heard that he/she (I've heard both, and I don't know the first name by memory) added extra symbolic stuff into SuperS as well.

Okay...

1) He's a man.
2) Kunihiko

[Rainbow]

Thank you! That was confusing before.

[Tiff]

Well, I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, so much that I never had to "train" myself not to think that way. I do somewhat pray to various characters (Taiki, Chibi-Usa-sama, sometimes my dog Diana) to help me, but it's usually because that character has been in a situation similar to the one I want help in (usually in trying to not get too overwhelmed by people noise) or because I just plain have respect for them.

....

Try as I might, Rainbow...I just can't imagine myself praying to my pet rabbit. Or a cartoon character.

And I've researched Atheism...Atheists do not pray if the prayer is meant to ask someone for something.

Something to back this up, from an AtheismAwareness site (http://www.alabamaatheist.org/awareness ... s/pray.htm):

Do Atheists Pray?

If one is referring to the act of making requests or other silent beseeching to a personal deity, then the answer is no. If someone is asking a deity to make their sick friends get well or to win the lottery or to help find their car keys then they're theistic. Atheists lack a belief in a deity so they would not pray to one or ask any deity for special favors.

If you are asking your dog, or cartoon characters to help you, that's to make a request. Now, granted, I'm not sure if you believe these creatures and cells of animation are deities, but you surely treat them as so.

Therefore, I find your statement that you're a hardcore atheist a bit hard to believe.