Nintendo's Pride, or How the Mighty Have Fallen

Mendoza · Post by **Mendoza** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:13 pm

As i combed over E3 coverage in my various gamming magazines I thought of something. What happened to Nintendo? Their was a time that Nintendo was the most dominant force in the console world. It was simply a jugernaut, and its closest rival Sega, though at times a more briliant first party developer than its rival, simply found itself playing second fidle. Untill the end of the 16 bit era this was the way of the game world, but then something happened. Since then Nintendo has become a pale desheveled shell of its former self. It has lost two straight rounds of console wars, and seems content to only lick its wounds and try to scrape out a small market share before unveling its next console. Instead of trying to salvage the gamecube nintendo seems comfertable to suckle at the teet of its handheld system for just a little bit longer despite the fact that third party support for both the cube and the gba is withering away.
Why has Nintendo fallen so far so fast. This is the question i pose to everyone.
My own theory is that Nintendo is a victim of its own success. It so utterly dominated its competition for so long that it grew weak and complacent. When it made mistakes the company did not admit them and failed to fix them. The first big mistake came with the release of the N64. The system was cartridge based whe it was clear that cds were the new gaming medium. At the same time the company kept its family roots and was slow to release adult oriented games while its competitiors, chiefly sony, embraced the more adult oriented games as part of thier lineup.
When the next round of console war fare began nintendo made two more mistakes that cost they dearly. The gamecube did embrace disc technology, but did not embrace the idea that the game machine could be an entertainment device at the same time.
Ps2 played dvds and cds, and the xbox did this along with the capabilites to be modded into an all purpose machine. The other mistake made was to not embrace online play. Both sony and microsoft have done so and been heavily rewarded for it. Nintendo seems reluctant to even include online capabilites with its next system.

If nintendo is going to win the next round of the console wars it needs to bite the bullet and look at what it has done wrong and rectify those mistakes. It cannot continue to make mistakes because the things that have bailed it out in the past are no longer untouchable. Sonys venture into the hand held market means serious competion, which is something nintendo has not had to deal with in the entirety of its hand held life. Also it cant rely on game sales in japan to put it on top because sony is powerfull in japan as well now, and the game spending in japan is down as a whole.

What do the rest of you think?

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:36 pm

Well, since its inception, video game technology has always thrived on new blood, and a really revolutionary game system only comes out once a decade. I'm sure in the early Eighties, everyone thought Atari would be the biggest name in video games forever, but they turned to dust by the time the NES came out. The NES became so popular that everyone and their sister started making games for it, and it became more popular, and the cycle continued. But the seeds of destruction came before the 64, even the Super Nintendo, while good, didn't break the kind of new ground needed. If Sega had marketed the Saturn better, I think it would have captured the top spot in gaming before Sony did.

Right now we're in the same kind of malaise that we were before the Playstation came out. New games are just rehashes of old games, movie tie-ins are more important than substance. Someone is going to have to come up with something new. I can venture a guess as to what it will be: real, actual interaction with PCs and the internet. It won't just be online play, it'll be RPGs that let you get the advice of fellow gamers; it'll be games that let you mix your own soundtracks; it'll be Doom-sytle level building. Games will cease to be limited to the disc or the cartridge or the memory card. Savegames will be data files that will be traded on peer-to-peer networks. Hacking will be encouraged.

But I don't see Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft doing this. It's going to come from the grass roots as it has in the past, probably from some company not yet in existence. It probably won't happen for a couple of years yet. But if it's not that, something will come along that will make us say in ten years, "What happend to Sony? They owned the gaming World with the PS, but they got complacent."

I guess what I'm saying is that Nintendo doesn't have any more problems than any other company in a competitive industry, but the era when they dominated was so great that it seems like a worse fall than it is.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:45 pm

You make a very good point. Personally, I think, well, let's put it this way; How many different Mario and pokemon games can you make before people get tired? I mean, the new Mario games just aren't fun anymore. And pokemon stadium is boring. If it was like the game boy game, but in 3-D, then I might buy it. Nintendo doesn't seem to be trying anymore to come up with something original. And look at their GBA games. They've just released all their old classics from the original Nintendo.

Now, I'm an 80s child, always have, always will. To me, no matter how advanced the graphics of the new games, the old 2-D's of nintendo will always kick their ass. I just bought a GBA, so having the old classics for it should be a dream come true, but it isn't. That's because I want to play old games on the old system. The GBA should be for new, more original games.

I think Nintendo needs to create something new and different if it wants to really compete. Playstation has the FF games and Castlevania:Lament of Innocence (T_T I want BAD), and X-Box has DDR Ultramix and will have Sudeki next Thursday (which I predict will be successful). Nintendo needs something that will make it's mark.

Maybe a Virtual Reality game/system or something

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:35 pm

I think that Sailor Asteroid is right. While I do think there are many wonderful games out right now, the world of video games is losing something. However, I think that there is an upcoming title that will have a hand in this revolution. What title? Fable. The RPG where you choose good or evil through your actions. (For instance, let's say you see a woman getting mugged. You have the options of stopping her attacker, or you can ignore it. You can become a real estate mogul and charge the people of your village. The game is as-near-to-limitless as I've seen).

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:42 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie

However, I think that there is an upcoming title that will have a hand in this revolution. What title? Fable. The RPG where you choose good or evil through your actions. (For instance, let's say you see a woman getting mugged. You have the options of stopping her attacker, or you can ignore it. You can become a real estate mogul and charge the people of your village. The game is as-near-to-limitless as I've seen).

What platform will this be for? X-Box right? Please tell me it's X-Box! :Shakes Kisu: IT JUST HAS TO BE X-BOX!! T_T

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:54 pm

peachvampiress wrote:ParaKiss_Groupie
However, I think that there is an upcoming title that will have a hand in this revolution. What title? Fable. The RPG where you choose good or evil through your actions. (For instance, let's say you see a woman getting mugged. You have the options of stopping her attacker, or you can ignore it. You can become a real estate mogul and charge the people of your village. The game is as-near-to-limitless as I've seen).
What platform will this be for? X-Box right? Please tell me it's X-Box! :Shakes Kisu: IT JUST HAS TO BE X-BOX!! T_T

^_^ X-box. Release date is September 14 (I think... I'd have to check again).

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:56 pm

You're right, Parakiss. I just checked Gamefaqs and it says it will come out for X-Box on Sept. 13. So you can stop shaking him now, Peach.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:02 pm

SUGOI!!!! I am soooo going to be evil

!!!

Jonathan

You're right, Parakiss. I just checked Gamefaqs and it says it will come out for X-Box on Sept. 13. So you can stop shaking him now, Peach.

But it's fun to shake him up like a bottle of champagne ~_^.

Wait, fable as nothing to do with Nintendo... KISU BACK ON TOPIC!!

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:04 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:I think that Sailor Asteroid is right. While I do think there are many wonderful games out right now, the world of video games is losing something. However, I think that there is an upcoming title that will have a hand in this revolution. What title? Fable. The RPG where you choose good or evil through your actions. (For instance, let's say you see a woman getting mugged. You have the options of stopping her attacker, or you can ignore it. You can become a real estate mogul and charge the people of your village. The game is as-near-to-limitless as I've seen).

Well, hand-in-glove with any technological revolution has to be a creative innovation. When the PS1 came out, and with it Final Fantasy VII, the general consensus was, yes, the graphics and FMV were nice, but it's the same linear RPG we've always had. But then games like Chrono Trigger came out and opened things up. Games like this Fable may be just the thing to convince people that they need to transcend the console--it would be great to be able to compare good and evil with other players, or to hold debates on exactly where the moral standards should be, or impute parameters on the game that the designers may not have thought of. It may have to come in Fable 2 or 3 or 12, but when both hardware and software both make the next leap, we'll have another golden age of games.

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:03 am

peachvampiress wrote: Nintendo doesn't seem to be trying anymore to come up with something original. And look at their GBA games. They've just released all their old classics from the original Nintendo.

Woah woah woah WOAAAAAH. Hold up just one dang second. Nintendo, not being original? Umm..........whaaaaaa???? Let's look at the things Nintendo has introduced in the past 5 years that were 100% original (even though they might not seem like it now, when they were first introduced there were very few games like it)

Mario Party. Board games? On a console? Who would have thought? And who would have thought it would work so WELL.

Animal Crossing. There's already an animal crossing thread here, if this game isn't orginal, i don't know what is.

Pikmin. Who would have thought growing plants could be FUN?

The Nintendo DS (the new handheld system). Two screens. One being a touch screen. Just think of the things they can do with that.

Gamecube GBA compatibility. While having not been used extensively until recently, this has awesome potential. I point to Pac-Man Vs., 4 Swords (GCN), and FF:CC to how well this feature can work.

I don't know how you can say NINTENDO is unoriginal. If anybody is unoriginal, it's Sony (and to a lesser extent) Microsoft. The only thing they've really "pioneered" is online gaming...And to that extent, I think the Gamecube's online capabilities are WAY better than Sony/Microsoft, mainly because it's FREE. Of course not official, the tunneling software available for GCN's LAN support is AWESOME. AND FREE. Any game that is LAN supported can pretty much be used via the tunnelling software. I'm waiting for a Smash Bros. or Mario Party with LAN support. That would definately kick some major arse.

And Mendoza, Nintendo originally had 2 versions of the Gamecube, a cheaper version that just played games (what a console should do first) and then a more expensive version made by Panasonic that played DVDs (The Q). So it's not like Nintendo didn't see the benefits of having a system with DVD capabilities, but the thing is, not many people were interested in a Gamecube that played DVDs. Most people already had a DVD player, or a PS2. The need for a DVD playing Gamecube simply wasn't there, so the Q eventually died out.

And to Nintendo's credit, since it dropped the price of the gamecube to 99 dollars, sales have been THROUGH THE ROOF. While not putting it in the #1 spot as far as market share is concerned, the figures were pretty astounding how well the system sold after the price drop. Software sales have been very good as well. I think it's not that Nintendo doesn't make quality games as to why they don't do as well (Look at Metroid Prime (and it's sequel), the new realistic Zelda game, Pikmin 2, RE4, etc etc which are all gamecube exclusives), it's that people are too shallow to give Nintendo a chance. "Grand Theft Auto is for PS2. I want a PS2" is basically all gamers seem to care about. Sony has done nothing but ride the coattails of its super star game developers. Personally, I don't think Sony would be in NEARLY the great position it was right now if it weren't for companies like Square, Konami, and Rockstar games supporting them. Sony did nothing to make themselves huge, their developers made them huge.

Anyways, I'll stop ranting here.

Sailor Wind · Post by **Sailor Wind** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:08 am

Nintendo said that they were going to try harder with their next generation console. They aren't gonna make a late release date like the Gamecube (which came out the latest out of the PS2 and xbox.) Nintendo are trying to release they're next console by the fall of 2006 which is ok since it's earliar than the PS3 (PS3 has been put back to 2007.)

Microsoft will probably do the best with their next generation console the Xbox 2 since it's being released the earlest. Microsoft also gave out a rough idea on when the Xbox 2 is being released which is on November 2005.

It just shows us that Microsoft are going to make the most profit over the next couple of years all because of an early release date and being able to get given the chance to sell way more copies compared to other rivals.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am

AnimeGuru0

Animal Crossing. There's already an animal crossing thread here, if this game isn't orginal, i don't know what is.

Pikmin. Who would have thought growing plants could be FUN?

0__o; I've never heard of those games. But to me, a Mario party game is still a Mario game (that and I get tired of those games within minutes).

Gamecube GBA compatibility. While having not been used extensively until recently, this has awesome potential. I point to Pac-Man Vs., 4 Swords (GCN), and FF:CC to how well this feature can work.

Is that where you can play GMA games on the Cube? Didn't they have something like that with original games and SNES?

What I ment by unoriginal is that they really haven't made anything that is big and is talked about all the time. DDR and FF are all talked about all the time (although, didn't Nintendo have FF at first?). Maybe it's me, but I've can't remember the last time I heard anyone talk about Nintendo's latest :insert item here:.

I still love Nintendo games, and would rather have the cube then my X-Box at this moment, but the other consoles are appealing to me more, and nintendo just isn't offering me anything I haven't seen anywhere else.

Sailor Wind · Post by **Sailor Wind** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:23 am

It's like each console has their own speciality:

GameCube - Most of the games are age ranged 16 and below

X-box - Most of the games are first person shooters (FPS)

PS2 - Nothing wrong with it has all different types of games and age ranges.

Mendoza · Post by **Mendoza** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:10 am

Its nice to see so many people respond to the thread

A few more points i wanted to make.
Nintendo's conectivity is at best a gimmick, and can be seen in the fact that few if any games realy use it now as compared to last years E3
Sony's power has come from its ability to get the best developers to make games for their system. They themselves are horrid at making games outside of the first two syphon filter games.
Good games are still being made but sequals do seem to be the law of the day, but just because a game is a sequal doesnt mean its bad. I loved Rachet and Clank 2 and cant wait to play the third one. Also the GTA games have only gotten better over time.
Remember though animeguru0, a lot of nintendo's sales were sparked by the fact that for a while they gave away some of their best games with the system. I mean why give away metriod prime, your company needs to make money off that game.
Its clear Nintendo is trying to move units, their wrangaling of the Resident evil franchis was a good example of that, though it didnt work out that well. Sony cant be blamed for doing what is best for its livelyhood. it knows its not good at making first party games so it makes sure it is in bed with the best developers and that has worked.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:25 am

Mendoza

but just because a game is a sequal doesnt mean its bad. I loved Rachet and Clank 2 and cant wait to play the third one. Also the GTA games have only gotten better over time.

In defense of Nintendo (because I don't dislike them that much ~_^) Majora's mask was a good sequel to. Ocarina of Time was a masterpiece, and to create a sequel that not only lives up to it's predesscor, but surpasses it in some areas takes a lot of talent.

Sailor Wind · Post by **Sailor Wind** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:38 pm

Nintendo aren't going to be making as much profit as they made this year and last year since they have already released most of their best games for the Gamecube. The only other games which will make more profit for Nintendo are Super Mario 128, Resident Evil 4 and the new Zelda game. Obviously there are more but i haven't checked all of E3.

Aya Reiko · Post by **Aya Reiko** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:25 pm

*sigh* Haven't we had this topic once before? Maybe I'm thinkin' of somewhere else...

Reasons the Gamecube is getting its ass kicked:

1. They have well funded competitors this time, and both Sony and MS are experts at marketing. MS has already stated they are to budgetting $2 billion through '06 towards marketing alone.

2. Reliance on thier own franchises have burned them. Old guard like Mario and newcomers like Pikmin weren't as successful as N hoped they would be. And everyone wants to forget about that Starfox game.

3. N is historically known for not being friendly to 3rd party devs. And Sony and MS has snatched up most of them. Furthermore, what few 3rd party devs N does have are dropping the GCN in droves.

4. Lack of features. GCN is a console, nothing more. PS2 and XBX offered, above everything, DVD playback and online play. That hurts GCN.

5. The stigma of "Family Friendly". It may look nice on PR releases, but the image of being "Family Friendly" is repelling 15-25 yo males with holes in their pockets in big numbers. It also goes back to Reason #3 as N is famed for its heavy-handed censorship.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:38 pm

Aya Reiko wrote:*sigh* Haven't we had this topic once before? Maybe I'm thinkin' of somewhere else...

Maybe on the old site, but I looked around the older threads and didn't find anything like it this time around.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:21 pm

Aya Reiko wrote:*sigh* Haven't we had this topic once before? Maybe I'm thinkin' of somewhere else...

I believe the one you're thinking about is RARE dropping Nintendo. I remember a conversation about that a while back.

Sailor Wind · Post by **Sailor Wind** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:47 pm

Actually come to think of it Nintendo do have online capabiilities which hardly anyone uses in the world of gaming. You can buy a separate broadband product for Gamecube, but i don't know anyone who plays online on the gamecube. The only game i know which does have online capabilities is Mario Kart: Double Dash. Obviously there's more but that's the most common one i could think of.

Does anyone here who has a Gamecube play online with it?