Shoujo Kakumei Utena

DistantMemory · Post by **DistantMemory** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:51 pm

Well, I finally bought the first two DVDs. Even after reading the manga, it took me a while to get used to (a while meaning at least 4-6+ hours because I watched them both on the same evening I bought them).

The good things about the anime are the animation and music. Especially the music; not despite the fact of it being crack-laden, but because it's crack-laden. I can try to come to my own conclusions about some of the symbolism and what they have to do with the plot and characters, but one in particular really gets me...

[spoiler]In one episode, when the Student Council was holding a meeting on the balcony, there were balloons floating in the background. What does that mean exactly?[/spoiler]

DreamEmpress · Post by **DreamEmpress** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:46 pm

Man, this one is old. Almost had a hard time finding it.

I had recently been able to find a copy of the Rose Saga at the library and decided to check it out. Everyone here seemed to have pretty positive stuff to say.

I loved the manga. I've read all 5 volumes and the Adolescence of Utena. Very awesome stuff! The first 13 episodes (all I've seen so far. I'm placing a hold on the next set) actually surprised me. It's pretty fast paced and the music just lingers in your head for days. That I wasn't expecting. But I did really enjoy it. Even the fillers. Those were the funnier ones. Now I totally get that elephant joke.

Anyway, I just wanted to say how i felt about it so far.

DistantMemory · Post by **DistantMemory** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:48 pm

DreamEmpress wrote:Now I totally get that elephant joke..

I never understood the thing with the elephant (if we're talking about the episode with Anthy's explosive curry). What was the joke behind it?

Sailor Europa · Post by **Sailor Europa** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:42 pm

On the sub-topic of Anthy and whether you like her or not:

My Dad hated her, because of the fact she'd do "anything" for the victor of the duel because she's the Rose Bride.

Now, when I first saw the series/read the manga, I liked her a lot.
I hated Touga, Akio, and Ruka with a passio, but Anthy I liked.

However, then I read this:

http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/04_anthys_malice.htm

And my whole outlook on Anthy changed drastically.

Suffice to say, I don't like her anymore.

Off Topic: Yay, Sailor Asteroid-kun! =D

Post by **Tiff** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:44 pm

Sailor Europa wrote:On the sub-topic of Anthy and whether you like her or not:

My Dad hated her, because of the fact she'd do "anything" for the victor of the duel because she's the Rose Bride.

Now, when I first saw the series/read the manga, I liked her a lot.
I hated Touga, Akio, and Ruka with a passio, but Anthy I liked.

However, then I read this:

http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/04_anthys_malice.htm

And my whole outlook on Anthy changed drastically.

Suffice to say, I don't like her anymore.

Off Topic: Yay, Sailor Asteroid-kun! =D

I've read that analysis before, and honestly, it made me like her more. It made me see that she wasn't such a one-dimensional character. She wasn't this simpering, wimpy little rose bride who stood around and did nothing. She had her own ulterior motives, had mystery and secrets of her own, and a calculating mind that worked throughout the whole show.

I like knowing Anthy's far more deep than people think.

Sailor Europa · Post by **Sailor Europa** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:47 pm

Tiff wrote:
Sailor Europa wrote:On the sub-topic of Anthy and whether you like her or not:

My Dad hated her, because of the fact she'd do "anything" for the victor of the duel because she's the Rose Bride.

Now, when I first saw the series/read the manga, I liked her a lot.
I hated Touga, Akio, and Ruka with a passio, but Anthy I liked.

However, then I read this:

http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/04_anthys_malice.htm

And my whole outlook on Anthy changed drastically.

Suffice to say, I don't like her anymore.

Off Topic: Yay, Sailor Asteroid-kun! =D
I've read that analysis before, and honestly, it made me like her more. It made me see that she wasn't such a one-dimensional character. She wasn't this simpering, wimpy little rose bride who stood around and did nothing. She had her own ulterior motives, had mystery and secrets of her own, and a calculating mind that worked throughout the whole show.

I like knowing Anthy's far more deep than people think.

Yeah, but..it just shows that she's evil!
More evil than her brother!

It's..argh..Mindboggling, that's what it is.

But yeah, Anthy IS a great character once you get used to her.
/me nods

Post by **Tiff** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:52 pm

Sailor Europa wrote:

Yeah, but..it just shows that she's evil!
More evil than her brother!

It's..argh..Mindboggling, that's what it is.

But yeah, Anthy IS a great character once you get used to her.
/me nods

Not necessarily evil. And you have to remember that the anthy in Ohtori is not really the "true" Anthy. The "True" anthy is in the coffin that Utena opens. And that Anthy goes to find Utena at the end.

And I wouldn't call Akio evil, either. Just very power hungry.

Sailor Europa · Post by **Sailor Europa** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:07 pm

Tiff wrote:
Sailor Europa wrote:

Yeah, but..it just shows that she's evil!
More evil than her brother!

It's..argh..Mindboggling, that's what it is.

But yeah, Anthy IS a great character once you get used to her.
/me nods
Not necessarily evil. And you have to remember that the anthy in Ohtori is not really the "true" Anthy. The "True" anthy is in the coffin that Utena opens. And that Anthy goes to find Utena at the end.

And I wouldn't call Akio evil, either. Just very power hungry.

Well he can be a bit of a sadistic bastard.
Argh, hatred for the man.

The Anthy in the Coffin you mentioned..
/me ponders

..I'll get back to you on that.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:41 am

Yes, yay me!

Even if Anthy acts out of subtle revenge, I think she's earned the right to a little vindictiveness. No one, before Utena, ever stops to consider her feelings or her position. Imagine if the series were done from her point of view: you'd have all these people controlling her, treating her like crap, and then Utena the white knight comes to save her. If Anthy were the protagonist, I don't think we could help liking her.

Akio on the other hand does strike me as evil. Specifically, he is twisted and does not seem happy. He's like the person who pulls wings off of flies until that gets boring, then takes to pulling on cats' tails until that thrill is gone, and eventually works up to murder and rape. A person who uses others to become happy I can respect; a person who hurts others out of spite of his own misery is evil.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:20 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:Yes, yay me!

Even if Anthy acts out of subtle revenge, I think she's earned the right to a little vindictiveness. No one, before Utena, ever stops to consider her feelings or her position. Imagine if the series were done from her point of view: you'd have all these people controlling her, treating her like crap, and then Utena the white knight comes to save her. If Anthy were the protagonist, I don't think we could help liking her.

Akio on the other hand does strike me as evil. Specifically, he is twisted and does not seem happy. He's like the person who pulls wings off of flies until that gets boring, then takes to pulling on cats' tails until that thrill is gone, and eventually works up to murder and rape. A person who uses others to become happy I can respect; a person who hurts others out of spite of his own misery is evil.

I agree 100% on Anthy. You said it ver ywell.

As for Akio..I don't believe in pure evil in human beings. I believe some of his ACTIONS were evil, but I don't believe he himself is evil. Cruel and twisted, yes. But cruel and twisted don't always equal evil.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:39 pm

In real life, "pure evil" would be an impossibility on the order of a perfectly flat surface or a total vacuum. No one sets out to be immoral, they just establish a new morality and follow that. To Stalin, people who didn't want to serve the state were traitors and traitors deserved death. He didn't say, "you have the right to life. . . but I'm going to kill you anyway."

Akio OTOH is a character, and characters can be all bad the same way that forces of nature can be, because they can be one-dimensional. And as I see it, he has no motivation for what he does most of the time other than hurting people. With Utena, it can be explained by plain lust, but with Anthy, he takes it as almost a fact of nature that she should suffer eternally. With Saionji and Touga he seems to delight in tricking them just to revel in their ignorance. It's the opposite as with Anthy: doing the show with Akio as the protagonist wouldn't work, since there's no way to connect with a character who seems to exist to be a dick all the time.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:50 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:
Akio OTOH is a character, and characters can be all bad the same way that forces of nature can be, because they can be one-dimensional. And as I see it, he has no motivation for what he does most of the time other than hurting people. With Utena, it can be explained by plain lust, but with Anthy, he takes it as almost a fact of nature that she should suffer eternally. With Saionji and Touga he seems to delight in tricking them just to revel in their ignorance. It's the opposite as with Anthy: doing the show with Akio as the protagonist wouldn't work, since there's no way to connect with a character who seems to exist to be a dick all the time.

Akio does these things becuase he seeks the same thing all of the other student council members seek: power. Only Akio wants the most of it,and he seeks extreme control over the things that are "his": Anthy, and Utena. He manipulated Utena to get what he wanted, and it worked. And with Anthy...well, according to her backstory as a witch, she was cursed to suffer eternally. Akio is simply the one to make it so.

*shrugs* I like Akio. He's one of my favorite villains, becuase I don't believe he just DOES things to be a dick. He has an underlying reason, an ulterior motive for everything. He's very calculating.

Sylphiel · Post by **Sylphiel** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:25 pm

Oh dear lord, how did I miss this thread?

I love this series. One of my favorites.

I haven't read the manga, but I've seen the anime and owned the movie. Heh, I still remember the first time I saw the movie... which I actually saw before finishing the series. I laughed hysterically when it ended and screamed "WTF WAS THAT???" because my brain was so broken ^^;;; I've watched it a number of times after though and it does start to make significantly more sense with each viewing.

... so in summary, very f-ed up, but great movie. ^^

The series... can't really say more than hasn't been said already. Amazing. The artistic-ness of it is just astounding.

DreamEmpress · Post by **DreamEmpress** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:28 pm

I rather liked Anthy. I'm only on the first disc of the Apocalpse Saga, but as I watch more of the series I find that I enjoy her more. She seems so submissive in the beginning, but as you watch her, she hints at so much more. The way she reacts to people that she isn't so fond of or when she's just being "evil" in her own right. My favorite moments are the ones where she does things that utterly surprise everyone.

Although I do enjoy it when she messes with Nanami's mind. Those episodes are the funniest!