Fansub Ethics

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:54 am

Something that's come up on many other anime boards I read is discussion of the right and wrong of fansubs. Should they exist at all? Should they be stopped when a series is licensed? Are they good or bad for the anime industry? Since subbed Sailor Moon was, for a long time, only available by fansub, and Sailor Stars still is, I'm curious as to your opinions.

NOTE: Where I have seen this discussion it often gets very heated, so as is customary I got advance permission from the Admins. Remember not to make it personal or insult anyone who disagrees with you!

As for me, I speak from the position of an unashamed, unabashed pirate. I think a show should be fansubbed to the end, preferably as it is airing, so that even if it is licensed and not subbed (like Pokemon or Magical DoReMi), a subbed version exists out there somewhere.

Post by **Tiff** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:09 am

ADMIN NOTE:

As Asteroid mentioned, he did get permission from me (and as far as I know, Dan)

HOWEVER.

I do not want ANY insults, bashing, or disrespectful behavior going on in this thread. Feel free to share your opinions on EXACTLY what Asteroid presented in the first post...but do not start insulting those people who do enjoy fansubs, bootlegs, or downloading episodes.

/ADMIN MODE.

As for me, I love the idea of fansubs, and were it not for them, I'd have never seen SuperS or Stars, not to mention Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, Bleach, and a few more. However, I do think fansubbing should stop when a show has become licensed. I think it's a matter of respect to the industry.

I do not think that having fansubs exist hurts the anime industry at all. A GOOD, reputable fansub distro will NOT sell fansubs for profit; rather, they will only sell it for the cost to make it, and nothing more. Most good fansub distros don't make any money from what they're doing; their money goes straight back to the production of fansub tapes and materials. In my opinion, if a fansub distro is actually making a profit from the selling of their tapes, then they are considered an unethical seller.

Usagi04 · Post by **Usagi04** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:49 pm

I think that fansubs are a good way to spread a series that is not licensed in that country's market. I think that once a series is licensed a fansubber should stop the production of the series unless a subbed version will not be released.

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:22 pm

Personally, I think fansubs actually HELP the industry. While I'm not a distro-pro, all the distributors I've bought from are very ethical as far as taking shows down once they're liscensed (some almost taking it a little TOO far, VKLL, I'm lookin in your direction! But hey, there's nothing wrong with being too ethical)

ALL of the liscensed anime I own is a result of fansubs that I've seen. Infact, were it not for fansubs, I wouldn't even own any anime, it was the fansubs that got me into the shows in the first place!

As far as when to start and stop distributing. I think that if a show is not subbed, then they should continue fansubbing. As mentioned previous, there are many shows such as Pokemon that don't even have a subbed version. I don't think I should be deprived of one just because 4kids or whoever doesn't excercise their right to release a japanese audio track. However, there's no denying it, distributing fansubs when there is a commercial sub available is just plain illegal and unethical. Of course there's always kinks thrown into the system (what if the commercial sub's translation is edited, poorly translated? etc etc). You'll always find that silver lining. But all in all, I think fansubbers as a whole, respect anime and the people who created it, and try and respect that those companies that brought us these wonderful shows deserve our money, not the fansubbers. We've got a great fansubbing community.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:38 am

I download episodes, subbed and raw, if the US would just release the originals or give the DVDs the option to have the Japanese cut and the Japanese soundtrack of the movies- WITH SUBTITLES- and possibly the episodes, I probably wouldn't have to resort to things that get my internet cut off a lot (I have a one gigabyte limit.) ... Grr. Even when they keep something in Japanese for once- think sixth movie's Chiisaki Mono being played in Japanese. Lovely. But what do the subs say? They only subtitle it when she says something in English. When it's in Japanese it has: [singing in Japanese] as if it's a sound effect. WHAT THE HELL, 4KIDS?! xDDD;; Er... anyhoo. ^^; Yeah. So it evens out.

Yeah, I'd stop getting fansubs if they sold subbed Pocket Monsters.
That would make my day as Pocket Monsters (even more if you count Advance Generation!) is one HELL OF A LOOOOOOOONG SERIES and only few episodes have been fansubbed.
Bah.

And regarding my country, they stopped near the end of the first half of the Jouto arc. Before they even got to the mini/subarc/side adventure with the Whirlpool cup! I had to watch the rest of the Jouto arc dubbed in English.

Wow. My /ears.../
Er, and the Arabic dub, like most dubs, is just a redub of the 4Kids' English one. So we get the same cuts, sometimes even MORE cuts. HOORAY!

4Kids/Miramax don't seem to like the idea of subbing for some reason... (see above Chiisaki Mono example. ^^;) so I will continue to download/watch on You Tube (xD;) fansubbed/raw episodes.

So, yeah, just stamp 'pirate booty' on my bum. Aaargh. Arr. Grr. I should go join Aqua-dan now.

EDIT: Though as for Sailor Moon (not Stars, though) I bought the Pegausus Collection so I could watch SuperS. See? I pay too!
Well, my dad, but... um... -shuts up-

Dinozore · Post by **Dinozore** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:29 pm

What I hate is when fansubbing groups not only ignore, but basically give the finger to licensing. I can't count how much "licensing/dubs/etc are the source of all evil" stupidity I've encountered over the years...

And they wonder why companies resort to sending them a C&D!

I mean, iirc, didn't people use to be HAPPY when a show got licensed? Now they act like it's the fricking end of the world (I could understand treating a license by 4Kids in this fashion, mind you, because they suck ass and don't release uncuts)...

The fact that most fansubbing groups tend to jump on the high-profile shows that are most likely to get licensed (most of which have 5+ groups doing it) while ignoring the lower-profile series also irks me. Mostly because I tend to go for such series.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:15 pm

Dinozore wrote:What I hate is when fansubbing groups not only ignore, but basically give the finger to licensing. I can't count how much "licensing/dubs/etc are the source of all evil" stupidity I've encountered over the years...

And they wonder why companies resort to sending them a C&D!

I mean, iirc, didn't people use to be HAPPY when a show got licensed? Now they act like it's the fricking end of the world (I could understand treating a license by 4Kids in this fashion, mind you, because they suck ass and don't release uncuts)...

I do agree that when a subbing group ignores licensing laws, that it's definitely wrong.

However, I think the reason a lot of fans aren't as happy as when they used to be when a show gets licensed is becuase of how utterly expensive anime has become nowadays. I mean, hell, I haven't bought anime in forever (except for a few miyazaki titles or hentais here and there) becuase it's so damn overpriced. You go to SamGoody, and they want you to pay 40 dollars for four episodes. It's ridiculous.

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:26 pm

Tiff wrote: However, I think the reason a lot of fans aren't as happy as when they used to be when a show gets licensed is becuase of how utterly expensive anime has become nowadays. I mean, hell, I haven't bought anime in forever (except for a few miyazaki titles or hentais here and there) becuase it's so damn overpriced. You go to SamGoody, and they want you to pay 40 dollars for four episodes. It's ridiculous.

A-men sister. A-men. But hey, remember when the classic and R season boxsets went on sale for 40 bucks??? That's less than a dollar an episode!!! Granted.....those box sets weren't worth much to begin with. Might as well play them on mute, the audio is so bad. DAMN YOU ADV. DAMN YOU!!!!

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:38 pm

AnimeGuru0

A-men sister. A-men. But hey, remember when the classic and R season boxsets went on sale for 40 bucks??? That's less than a dollar an episode!!! Granted.....those box sets weren't worth much to begin with. Might as well play them on mute, the audio is so bad. DAMN YOU ADV. DAMN YOU!!!!

$150 was the cheapest you could get it up here in Canada. I'd have killed to get a discount like that. T_T you guys were so lucky.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:46 pm

Not only is the money too much in the abstract, but at least for me, I'm used to getting entertainment "buffet style," where I pay a flat fee and get all of it I want. Pay a fee for satellite and watch all the TV I want, pay for internet and download as many files or sites as I want, etc.

To put it in perspective, I can pay $40 and get about 150 channels of television for a month, which is 108,000 hours a month. Of which, I watch maybe 150 hours. Now, I would happily pay that for 150 hours worth of anime in a month, commercials included, if it was available subtitled. They can do two audios on one channel with the SAP function, but I don't know if subtitles can be sent over TV.

Fansubs are unique because it's people doing for free what professionals do for money, so it messes up the economics of it. Would licensing companies be willing to agree to taking the money just for the legal permission to watch the show, and let the fansubbers do all the work? In any case, it's impractical to try to snuff out all fansubs, so they should still be available for a while.

Aya Reiko · Post by **Aya Reiko** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:In any case, it's impractical to try to snuff out all fansubs, so they should still be available for a while.

What the R1 companies have done is target the subbers and distros by sending Cease & Desist letters to them. But only when it comes to series they have rights to. Otherwise, they usually just ignore them.

R2 companies are no longer turning a blind eye like used to either. Which is why you shouldn't find anything from Media Factory at AnimeSuki.

No one is going to wipe out everyone at once. What is happening is companies are getting involved whenever it suits their interest.

Jumbled Thoughts · Post by **MarioKnight** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:09 am

Sailorasteroid wrote:Not only is the money too much in the abstract, but at least for me, I'm used to getting entertainment "buffet style," where I pay a flat fee and get all of it I want. Pay a fee for satellite and watch all the TV I want, pay for internet and download as many files or sites as I want, etc.

To put it in perspective, I can pay $40 and get about 150 channels of television for a month, which is 108,000 hours a month. Of which, I watch maybe 150 hours. Now, I would happily pay that for 150 hours worth of anime in a month, commercials included, if it was available subtitled. They can do two audios on one channel with the SAP function, but I don't know if subtitles can be sent over TV.

I really like that analogy right there. I've never thought of it that way before and is a good comparison. I always had the mindset of what prices were in the VHS days and compare them to DVDs of today and figure it's a better buy. But looking at things in that perspective really changes those thoughts, and I fully agree with them.

As for other points mentioned, I definetly have to agree with Bob. I think fansubs really help the industry. I can also say had it not been for fansubs, the chances of me buying commerical subs would drastically decrease. Dinozore brings up a good point about a few subbers jumping on a high-profile show and hardly any to any not-as-high-profile. I would like to see some of the lesser known titles get subbed and get their chance over on this side of the ocean. Hell, there's a bunch of older anime which probably hasn't even been touched by anyone over here (fansubs or commerical) that should get a chance.

Cardcaptor Takato · Post by **Cardcaptor Takato** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:57 am

I think fansubs are a great way to help promote anime in the U.S. by giving fans a chance to check series out before they're licensed. I download a lot of fansubs myself but I also download licensed anime. Single volume anime DVDs are just too expensive and would take too long for me to collect considering how very rarely I get to actually buy anime DVDs. I do buy DVDs whenever I can to support the industry, but usually I can only afford to buy them if it's in a cheap boxset. Luckily, a lot of older anime titles are being re-released in cheaper boxsets recently, so I can finally afford to buy a lot of my favorite series, but single volumes are still too expensive for me to buy, so downloading is the only way I can watch anime aside from the occassional DVDs I can buy.

Anyway, I think fansubbers should be allowed to continue fansubbing until it reaches the end of the show and start to take the downloads off as the DVDs are released in the U.S. There's nothing more annoying than when you start downloading fansubs of a series only to have it licensed half-way through the show, so then you have to wait forever for the R1 DVDs to catch up to where you left off. It's especially annoying when you're almost near the end of the show only to have it licensed. I think anime companies should either price their single volume DVDs cheaper (would selling an anime DVD for $20 instead of $30 really hurt the industry that badly?) or be a little more considerate of when they decide to license a series if they want more fans to support them, but I do support anime companies whenever I can.

Post by **Tiff** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:55 pm

Cardcaptor Takato wrote: I think anime companies should either price their single volume DVDs cheaper (would selling an anime DVD for $20 instead of $30 really hurt the industry that badly?) or be a little more considerate of when they decide to license a series if they want more fans to support them, but I do support anime companies whenever I can.

But how can you ask a legitmate company to "be considerate" of someone's illegal activity involving the company's episode rights? As ideal as that sounds, it's not very realistic.