Usagi and Mamoru's relationship, pre-Ginzuishou

[Sailorasteroid]

If anyone wants to continue the debate, they are free to make a new topic about it.

Done.

Sailorasteroid: Rudiments, yes. But "My Only Love" implies that the two have been in love since they first met, and Sailor Moon's argument does the same. They don't have the same loving feelings before the revelation of the ginzuishou that they do afterwards. If so, they would NOT behave the way they do in the beginning of the series.

They do not have the same loving feelings, but that does not necessarily mean they are not in love. Love is like a mountain--it's hard to tell where it begins. This is how I saw things: Usagi and Mamoru are complete strangers the first time she hits him with a test, but all times after they meet having fought together unawares as Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. The feelings they have for each other in fighting form come through subliminally as they encounter each other in civilian form, but both of them, Usagi particularly, rebel against these feelings toward greater anger and rage. The dichotomy of two people who love each other in costume and play at hatred out of them is played out as a joke for the audience. It is not even particularly original--look at Twelfth Night, for example, or Lois Lane and Clark Kent/Superman.

You may be 100% right here. Usagi and Mamoru might have genuine dislike for each other before they know each other's identities. I may be reading way too much into this. (Reading way too much into things is one of my favorite pastimes.) In real life (*shudder*), love is almost universally shown by the traditional expressions therof--kisses, compliments, and so forth. In fiction, it's possible for it to be shown by the exact opposite. The true feelings of the characters may be something the anime writers left open to interpretation.

[Tiff]

The true feelings of the characters may be something the anime writers left open to interpretation.

Which is why people shouldn't speak of their "pre-existing feelings" like it's truth.

in·ter·pret ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tûrprt)
v. in·ter·pret·ed, in·ter·pret·ing, in·ter·prets
v. tr.
To explain the meaning of: interpreted the ambassador's remarks. See Synonyms at explain.
To conceive the significance of; construe: interpreted his smile to be an agreement; interpreted the open door as an invitation.
To present or conceptualize the meaning of by means of art or criticism.
To translate orally.

v. intr.
To offer an explanation.
To serve as an interpreter for speakers of different languages.

To interpret whether or not Usagi and Mamoru's love was obvious before the ginzuishou, you are offering an explanation for WHY you believe that is so...but that is not the same as showing EVIDENCE and FACTS to back this up.

Starscream's point is that there is no factual evidence, whether it be dialog or actions from either of the characters, to prove Sailor Moon's "facts" about Usagi and Mamoru being in love from the very beginning. Quite frankly, I agree with him that she's turning her slight obsessive and fantastical ideas about the animated couple into fact about the anime. She had yet to offer up any evidence of this being so, but instead she simply rambles on and on about how great their love is.

It is not even particularly original--look at Twelfth Night, for example, or Lois Lane and Clark Kent/Superman.

That probably wasn't the best analogy to use, as in Superman, it is stated plainly that Lois had feelings for Clark even before she knew he was Superman, and it was evident Clark always liked HER.

Also, to anyone who used the "they tease eachother, so they must like eachother" argument...generally, BOTH parties do the teasing if they like eachother. General knowledge of Junior High shows this. But in the anime, Mamoru is the only one that's really mean to Usagi, not vice versa. Usagi reacts with anger and usually storms off or speaks of how much she hates him, whereas Mamoru is the only one who makes fun of her grades and her personality.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe Mamoru and Usagi became a little more SERIOUS after they realized "Hey..we're royalty and have a huge fucking mission to do", and that's why Usagi perhaps was more attracted to Mamoru after she realizes she's the princess? Maybe since he lost his immaturity a bit, and she became a bit more devoted to her mission, the attraction between them (intermingled with the discovery of their destiny) began, as they became somewhat different people from then on.

Nonetheless, I agree with Starscream, 100%.

[Sailorasteroid]

To interpret whether or not Usagi and Mamoru's love was obvious before the ginzuishou, you are offering an explanation for WHY you believe that is so...but that is not the same as showing EVIDENCE and FACTS to back this up.

Very David Hume-ian. If an explanation is logically consistent, then whatever facts come into evidence against it, and even if facts fail to bolster the argument, it still remains a possibility, albeit an improbable one. We also encounter the problem of circular reasoning. If I believe that they are in some kind of love, then, for example, "odango atama" is a veiled term of endearment, and looks like evidence for. If you disagree, then it seems like a genuine looks-based putdown on Mamoru's part that evolves into a term of endearment, and looks like evidence against.

Starscream's point is that there is no factual evidence, whether it be dialog or actions from either of the characters, to prove Sailor Moon's "facts" about Usagi and Mamoru being in love from the very beginning. Quite frankly, I agree with him that she's turning her slight obsessive and fantastical ideas about the animated couple into fact about the anime. She had yet to offer up any evidence of this being so, but instead she simply rambles on and on about how great their love is.

Sailor Moon's writing style is, at best, difficult to deal with, and, at worst, virtually bereft of meaning. I am not presuming to defend her logic, if it exists. It is my sincere hope that she can do so herself.

That probably wasn't the best analogy to use, as in Superman, it is stated plainly that Lois had feelings for Clark even before she knew he was Superman, and it was evident Clark always liked HER.

And did she ever show those feelings? But you're right, it's not a great analogy, for many reasons, one of which being there are so many versions of Superman. How about this one: Ranma and Akane? They have constant fights, yet is there ant doubt that they'll end up together? I do have evidence for this one: quoth the Ranma FAQ, "Rumiko Takahashi has said that Ranma and Akane are the only real couple in Ranma ½ , and also that they will marry."

Did you ever stop to think that maybe Mamoru and Usagi became a little more SERIOUS after they realized "Hey..we're royalty and have a huge fucking mission to do", and that's why Usagi perhaps was more attracted to Mamoru after she realizes she's the princess? Maybe since he lost his immaturity a bit, and she became a bit more devoted to her mission, the attraction between them (intermingled with the discovery of their destiny) began, as they became somewhat different people from then on.

Nonetheless, I agree with Starscream, 100%.

It's quite possible. Certainly they were not unchanged after the ginzuishou incident, and certainly it helped them grow together. But let's pretend for a moment that we're not in a magical girl series. Let's instead assume that all the civilian scenes are filmed and constitute the whole show up to that point. Let's further assume that Usagi and Mamoru get together at the same time frame and confess their love over an incident that's equally emotional in scope, but not supernatural. Example: Mamoru gets in a car crash and almost dies. Usagi rushes to the hospital and cries until he wakes up, then they embrace. Then they begin their formal dating relationship. Is this from so far out in left field that it destroys the narrative structure or shatters the suspension of disbelief? Can you actually say it's wrong for it to happen?

[Tiff]

You know what? I don't CARE enough to even come up with a logical or well-written response. So the rest of you can debate this further. There's not much more I can say to defend my argument without repeating myself over..and over..and we all know how annoying that can be.

This has been blown so much out of proportion, and, to me, isn't even worth debating. I guess I don't see the joy or the point of analyzing a cartoon relationship THAT much.

[DreamEmpress]

The title kind of intrigued me. And I'm hoping I read this thread correctly. Anyway, here's my two cents on the issue.

During the first half of the first season, Mamoru and Usagi had a very unique thing. He'd insult her every time he saw her and she'd complain about him and stick her tongue out or something. Not exactly what you would call the perfect beginning to a relationship...or even the start of one. As time seemed to go one, he was always bumping into her. This sort of became routine. If he ever happened to be around when she was having a problme he'd give her advice. Like when she wanted to be a model or when she isn't sure what to do about Naru falling in love with the enemy. When Rei starts hanging around Mamoru, Usagi gets a little jealous. I'm not sure it's love so much as it's become routine that he only pays attention to her. To have him hanging out with Rei is a blow to her pride, in a sense. After some time, they find that they don't mind being in each other's company so much. Right before they find out who the other is, Usagi runs after Mamoru when he is hurt. I think it's safe to say that they care enough about each other, forming a close friendship. It's not exactly romantic love until afterward when they begin to understand each other and themselves.

In the manga this is very different. They start out with the same argument thing, but quickly pull away from that. so far they just know each other from battle and their civilian forms don't really know each other. In the third chapter, they start to wonder if the other is the person they knew from battle. Mamoru is more certain of this than Usagi. It's about then he starts to pay much closer attention to her. After seeing her transform, he knows she is Sailor Moon. He even goes so far as to keep her handkerchief from the Mascarade. I'm guessing he is developing feelings for her, while she still sees him as a potiential friend and his alter ego as more. When she faints after the dark video incident he is there to rescue her and give encouragement. after some time alone, she suddenly realizes the man she was falling for was him all along and they both start to grow closer much faster. Discovering their past only confirms thier feelings of being meant to be.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts. who knows, I could be wrong. Either way, it's still a beautiful story.

[Cardcaptor Takato]

I don't think Usagi and Mamoru had an actual relationship, but they did have feelings for each other that were just unconfirmed. In the episode where Rei "goes out" with Mamoru, Usagi claims that it's impure fratanerzation and Luna grumbles to herself, "She's just jealous." In another episode, after the usual argument with Usagi, Mamoru is talking to Motoki about it. Motoki tells Mamoru that he shouldn't treat her like that and Mamoru says that they just always end up fighting with each other every time they see each other and then says that he guesses they just don't get along with this sort of sighing expression on his face, like he wishes they could but they can't.

Then, in the episode where Yumemi's rainbow crystal is stolen from her, Usagi is at Yumemi's house with Mamoru to be models for Yumemi's painting. Usagi thought Rei would kill her if she found out about this and looked up at Mamoru and thought to herself that he did look handsome, but then smacked herself for thinking such a thought. Mamoru then sort of smiled at her when she smacked herself. I believe the episode itself was called "Illustrations of love! Usagi and Mamoru getting closer?"

After Usagi had transformed herself into Sailor Moon in front of Mamoru and when he was fighting against Zoicite before the Ginzishou was finally found, Tuxedo Kamen jumped in front of Sailor Moon just before she was attacked by Zoisite. Usagi then ran over to the injured Mamoru and started crying for him. It was then Usagi's teardrops that caused the rainbow crystals to form together the Ginzishou and I believe in the manga, the Ginzishou even came from just Usagi's tears, but I haven't read enough of the manga to say that for sure.

Although the Ginzishou brought back the memories of Usagi and Mamoru's past relationship, it was Usagi's feelings for Mamoru that brought forth the Ginzishou, and it was Mamoru who risked his life to protect Usagi that made her cry for him. In a later episode, where Rei and Usagi get trapped in the snow, she says she "gave up" on Mamoru because he had risked his life for her and there was no way she could compete with that. All this happening before they got their memories back, too. So, even though they didn't have an actual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, they did have unconfirmed feelings for each other and it was the Ginzishou that pretty much confirmed it for them.

[marspeach]

I don't think they had any romantic feelings for each other. MAYBE Mamoru made fun of Usagi because he liked her, but I don't think she liked him. At all. This was one of the things I didn't like about the anime; they probably would have never gone out if they hadn't found out about their past lives.

[LadyFlameSniper]

I don't think Usagi realized her true feelings for Mamoru until the Silver Crystal appeared. And they definitely were not in a relationship before that. Of course she had feelings for Tuxedo Mask but she didn't know he and Mamoru were the same person for a long time.

In the original version, I think that Usagi genuinely disliked Mamoru. (and Mamoru's teasing was a lot more cruel than the dub) In that same episode where the Silver Crystal appeared. Usagi told Mamoru she hated him more than anyone else, but after hearing his story she said she cold put him in second place. If she was jealous of Rei dating Mamoru, it could also be because Rei was going out with someone and she wasn't. Not necessarily because of WHO she was dating. All of this is only for the anime, since the manga is pretty different.

[Rainbow]

I'm not sure what to think, except that Usagi and Mamoru's relationship seems much like Yousuke and Momoko's relationship on Wedding Peach (before the Silver Crystal appears, that is). Then again, I could be wrong, considering that I've only seen the first 12 episodes.

[Sailor Wind]

i'm surprised that even after all the times usagi and mamoru argued and fought against each other they still fell in love around the first 30 episodes.

like usagi would call mamoru a bully and mamoru would think she's just some weird high skool girl :s, and a day after she find's out he is tuxedo kamen she care's for him straight away??? lol i think that's kinda wierd and hard to understand but how they made it like that was gd.

[Sailorasteroid]

You know, thinking about this issue I realize that the reason I favor Usagi and Mamoru having a veiled love is that I get more enjoyment out of the story if the protagonists don't change their feelings over single issues. I'm probably in the minority on this, but I prefer stories involving basically static protagonists who either appear to be one thing while actually being another, or who have a set personality that influences the world around them. This latter concept is how I see the Sailor Moon series--Usagi, notwithstanding her gradual and slight maturation over the course of the five years, never suffers any concrete changes of personality, and the personality she has reshapes the world around her, making her friends better persons for it, and either defeating or converting her enemies.

[Sailor Moon]

Usagi and Mamoru are boyfriend/girlfriend and are together and in love and are a couple, they are my favorite couple, and are dating and in a loving, wonderful, passionate, romantic relationship together throughout the series in which they are together. They are in love and going out and love each other more then anyone else in the world. They do have romantic feelings for each other because they are dating and in love and a couple and going out together throughout the series.

Usagi and Mamoru are my favorite couple, so I am going to write a long essay, defending their relationship.

They are in love before they start going out and before they get together. They are in love before they are dating and while they are dating and they are in love and together in every season. Also, for those who say they don't, you should say when, because those who read it may get confused, because they are dating and in love, and when you say they don't have a relationship, those readers may get confused because you didn't say at what time, because they do have a relationship because they are dating, going out, in love, the most passionate, loving, enchanting couple and together in a passionate relationship. So you should try to say when, because if you don't say when, then people may get mixed up. If you're not specific, it may cause a missunderstanding if it's not edited in a specific way. I didn't mean to tell anyone what to do, I just wanted to explain something. Sorry, I just had to bring it up that the wordings may cause missunderstanding. I just read what I wrote. I am now confused at what I wrote, but I am leaving it in because I spent a lot of time writting this. Now I will talk about my favorite couple, Usagi and Mamoru. First of all, I have watched their relationship from the start, since the first episode I saw was one of the first episodes, this was in 1995, so I watched their love from the beginning. They are dating and in love and together, so anyone who says they don't have feelings for each other is wrong, because they are together and a couple, so they do love eachother, because people who are together are in love.

They had feelings for each other before they found out about their secrets. First of all, they were in love with each other before they found out about their identities. They loved their alter egos as well. In the art episode, before they were dating, in the Japanese version it showed how while they started out arguing, they developed a friendship, which turned into like, which turned into love, which turned into them dating and becoming boyfriend and girlfriend and going out and dating and being a couple in each season, and are a couple in each season. They did find out about their past lives, but they loved each other before they found out.

Watch the Japanese version of episode 28 again. Look carefully at the expressions on their faces. Watch the Japanese version of episode 15 again. Then watch the Japanese version of episode 34 again. Watch episode 7 again as well. Before they started dating, they would fantasize about their secret identities. Mamoru saved Usagi's life many times before they were dating. Although they did argue, Mamoru playfully teased Usagi because he loved seeing how she would react, but when she got upset, he wasn't sure what to say and he apologized. A lot of the arguments were only in the English version. Watch Japanese episode 28 and the English counterpart and you'll see a huge difference. Mamoru sacrificed his life to save Usagi, and this was before they were dating and before they found out the secrets of their past. Think about who you would sacrifice yourself for. Mamoru also wanted to give her advice, and hang around her when she needed adive for a problem.

They had feelings for each other before they found out about their identities, because they would blush and get nervous and smile. Before Usagi and Mamoru became boyfriend/girlfriend and found out about their secret identities, after they met they did fight at first, but after that, Mamoru is always happy to see Usagi, he always smiles when around her and wants to be around her. Before Usagi and Mamoru are dating, Mamoru ricks his life many times to save her, and they fall in love with their secret identities as well. They also fantasize about their secret identities before they are dating. Before Usagi and Mamoru were dating, Usagi fantasized about marrying him.

Before Usagi and Mamoru were dating, Usagi also shows a certain side in episode 14. She follows Mamoru and Rei around on their date because it is Mamoru. Usagi felt a special bond to Mamoru. She cared because it was Mamoru. When it is Yuichirou, the situation was presented differently. This shows how Mamoru plays an important part in her life before they were dating.

Before Usagi and Mamoru were dating, they also showed attraction to each other by their interest in who the other liked. In episode 13, when Usagi tells Mamoru that someone is in love with her, look carefully at how Mamoru reacts. You'll see that he seems upset, because he likes Usagi, and that is why he said the things he said. In episode 7, Mamoru smiles and is very happy to see her, and goes up to her and greets her happily. Before Mamoru and Usagi started dating, Mamoru playfully teased Usagi and even though they fought, Mamoru loved seeing her. In Chibi-Usa's diaries, look at the way Kosuke behaves. If you pay close attention, you will notice the similarities. Before Mamoru and Usagi began dating, you will notice that the way they interact is very special and shows that before they are together they are attracted to each other, but they, at first, are unsure of their feelings.

Before they were dating, Mamoru told her he'd protect her. In the art episode, Usagi realizes that she is attracted to him, and gets nervous because she wants to stay devoted to her hero (this is before identities are revealed). Mamoru looks at her and smiles, happy to be by her. They get closer throughout this episode. When Yumemi is walking with Usagi after Mamoru left, she asks Usagi if she wanted to walk home with Mamoru, Usagi gets nervous and blushes, and tells her that it was fine. Pay close attention to Mamoru's expressions during this episode. Also, you have to watch the Japanese version of this episode. The English version adds in a lot of lines, and changes lines around.

Before they were dating and before they found out their secret identities, they did protect each other. While they fought, they enjoyed each other's prescence. When Usagi is late for a meeting with the senshi, and hurrying, she sees Mamoru and goes out of her way just to see him. This shows how she enjoys being around him. She goes out of her way to see him when she was still nervous about being late. He smiles seeing her, because she brings innocence into his life. He tells her to stay happy. She gets confused and sees blood on her hands. She looks concerned and follows him. She is late to a meeting and follows him, which shows she wants to be around him and is worried about him. She has a nervous look on her fance. If they weren't close, she wouldn't sacrifice being late. She follows him and he wants to protect her, so he tells her to go out of the way. Then when Zoisite comes, Mamoru tells Zoisite to send Usagi back. Zoisite says he will turn Usagi into charcoal if he attacks. Mamoru wants to protect Usagi, so he doesn't attack, until Zoisite double crosses.

Before they start dating, Mamoru protects Usagi when they are running and puts his arm around her when they are in the elevator. This happens before they are dating. He puts his arm around her because he wants to protect her. This is before they got together, before they found out their identities that this occured. In the elevator he apologizes for getting her into the situation, and he protects her. Then he reveals his deepest secret he's never revealed to anybody to Usagi. He trusts her, that is why he reveals it. If he wasn't close to her, he wouldn't have revealed his deepest secret he'd kept hidden away from everyone for so long. Usagi blushes and feels safe with him.

If they hadn't found out about their identities after this, if they escaped without finding out, they would still be dating, because after facing danger together, their relationship would change after they realized how they protected each other. When Usagi transforms in front of Mamoru, Mamoru is shocked and happy. When Mamoru transforms in front of Usagi, Usagi thinks back to their similarities. Usagi is happy. Usagi asks if he really is the same person who saved her life all those times. He says yes, and she did a good job. He tells her that he will protect her and she blushes. Then, when the crystal is about to hit her, Mamoru sees it, and jumps in the way, and sacrifices his life for hers.

Usagi screams his name, and the tear of her true love comes out, revealing the ginzuishou. Usagi's tears awaken Mamoru. When Mamoru wakes up, he holds her face, and from the touch of her face and the appearance she takes, he recalls his memories. After their identities are revealed, and after a lot of obstacles, they begin dating. While they are dating they face a lot of challenges. It is their love that surmounts the challenges. They are together and dating for many seasons, and their relationship of boyfriend and girlfriend is so touching, romantic and loving. Two people who have given their lives to protect each other.

When they begin dating, Mamoru has a nickname for Usagi, Usako, my little rabbit. I tihnk it means my little rabbit. Usagi has a nickname for Mamoru, Mamo-chan. This shows how they progressed throughout their relationship. At first, Mamoru used the name Odango-atama, then he called her Odango, then Usagi, and then Usako. He also calls her Usagi in a lot of the earlier episodes. Usagi starts using the name that guy, then she calls him Mamoru-san, then she gives him his nickname of Mamo-chan. When they are dating, you can tell they love each other for who they are in the present. Look at the happy look on Mamoru's face. In many episodes when Usagi and Mamoru are on a date and together. In episode 60, episode 61, episode 77, episode 88, episode 91, episode 93, episode 94, episode 101, episode 102, episode 132, episode 140 and episode 173, pay close attention to the look on Mamoru's face.

His smile is so loving, passionate and genuine. In the anime, you can just see how mushc he loves Usako, and you can just see how in love he is with his girlfriend, Usagi. Everytime he smiles, is when he is around or thinking about Usagi. In the first season, the times he smiled was when he was playfully teasing Usagi. She brought happiness into his life. When they are dating, she always makes him smile. In the episodes I mentioned above, look at Mamoru's face in the episodes. His smile is so sweet, innocent, loving and full of happiness. He is with his soulmate, the one person who makes him feel love and happiness. Before Usagi, he's never had any love ebfore, he doesn't remember his parents, and Usagi is the one person who brings happiness into his life.

It is Usagi who brings him happiness. The person he knows and is in love with and dates is the one he loves in the present. She isn't just someone he had known to him, she is the world to him, it is Usagi who he loves and he loves everything about her. He loves her for who she is, and by the happiness in his eyes, you can tell that he'd do anything to make her happy and that he loved her before he found out about her identity because he loves the person she is. In the R movie, he tells her that he feels like all his life he's been waiting alone just to meet her. That quote really touched my heart. She changed him. She was a ray of light that brightened up his life and brought in love and happiness he never knew before. Just look at his expressions in those episodes. He looks so innocent, so happy and so in love. He has always felt good around her, from the first season and on she was someone who he felt special around. When they are dating he is in paradise jsut being with the one he loves.

During the period when he lost his memory, you can tell that he falls for her all over again before they are dating. Before they are dating when they are in the lazer arcade, when Usagi runs away, Mamoru looks nervous, runs into the next room, and tells her not to get lost. He takes her hand and says that now that they are in the game, they will try for the high score. Even though he has no memory of what had happened, he still feels joy being around her. In the babysitting episode before they were dating, he wants Usagi around. He takes ehr hands and enjoys being with her. In the episode where the Maikaju attacked them before they are dating, he reaches for her hand and steps in front of her, taking the blasts of energy to protect her, before he fully gets his memory back. He took the blasts after he was remembering a little bit, but he fully regains it after he protected her. This shows that he loved her the same way before he found out about her secret identity.

During the breakup, Mamoru wants to protect Usagi. One of the most heartwrenching scenes is when you see him looking out of his room, with his motorcycle, and two tears fall on his helmet, and it shows that he cries through the night. He sees Usagi's face in the water. He loves her for who she is. He just wants to protect her. He sacrifices his reputation among everyone to protect her. He bottles up everything inside for her. He does this for someone he loves and this is after they were dating for a short time, which shows that he loved her for the person she was before they were dating and before they found out their identities.

When he regains his memory he calls her my dumpling head. This shows that he has always cared for the person she is. She is his Usako, his odango-atama, the person that means the world to him. When they are dating and she spills cookies all over his floor, he's just happy she's here, and tells her to be the way she is now. All their hugs and kisses while they are dating show that their love is about who they are, not who they were. Usagi loves Mamoru's heroic, caring and protective nature, Mamoru loves the way Usagi brings life and light into him. She brought him happiness even way back before they went out. Just seeing her would put a smile on his face. He cared for her a long time before they started dating. She also loved his protective side before they were dating.

In conclusion, they did love each other before they were dating and before their identities were revealed. They love each other for who they are in the present. Watch episode 34 carefully and re-watch the episodes before thet were dating and you can see that they still felt close before everything. Also, in the manga, Usagi says that even when she didn't know about Mamoru's identity, even though they fought before, she felt glad just seeing him.

The most important thing is, Usagi and Mamoru are dating and in love, and they love each other for who they are in the present. Mamoru calls Usagi, Usako, my little rabbit, and before he called her my dumpling head, in the episode before they started dating.

Usagi and Mamoru love each other for who they are in the present, and they are a couple in all five seasons, and dating in four seasons, and while they were dating their love has passed many tests, and they ahve been through everything. Also, they did have feelings for each other before they started dating. I love how they are a couple in all five seasons, because seeing them from the start, how their relationship first began and all the trials they went through, and then seeing them as a happy couple, together and dating in every season after the one where they first got together, is so wonderful. Here is an official monolouge that were Usagi's thoughts before her and Mamoru started dating. This is what shows that they had feelings for each other before they started dating and when they are dating they love each other for who they are. This monolouge shows how Usagi feels.

http://members.fortunecity.com/usakohim ... logueusagi

It is an official monolouge.

This monolouge tells how they loved each other before they were dating, and they love each other for who they are while they are dating. They get married because they love each other passionately for who they are.

Please go to nocturnica.net/starlight The webmaster of that site has a lot of essays.

MK Mod Edit: Editted out the parts of the essay that had only talked about how much work went into this, and kept only the parts that had to do with the discussion to make it shorter. Any editting of this to make it shorter that was promised would really be great, thank you.

[RoastedTwinkies]

I just can't see how Usagi and Mamoru and feelings for each other before the gizuinshou appeared. Sure, Usagi had her stupid fantasies about Tuxedo Mask, but that was BEFORE she learned that Tuxedo Mask was really Mamoru. I can't see any evidence whatsoever to support the idea that they had feelings for each other.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I didn't read your post, Sailor Moon. At first, I found it to be too long, so I skipped it and replied. You do have some good points there, but I'm still convinced that Usagi and Mamoru were not in love before the gizuinshou appeared.

[Sailor Wind]

yer in some ways it's like it randomly happened.

like at one stage they don't even like each other at all what so ever but they love each other in there serect identities :S. and plus even though they find out about each other eventually they start to take interest on each other a day later which i think is a bit random.

there expressions doesn't show this which i'm surprised of.

[DreamEmpress]

It seems that many agree that they had deepening feelings right before their memories were restored. I think it's that kind of relationship that a lot of people look for. Finding that one person who you may not be crazy about in the beginning, but that you start to get to know and enjoy being around. Someone who makes you want to do more and give more of yourself. I've always thought of them as an ideal.

Even if their relationship wasn't completely romantic beforehand, it at least was a naturally growing friendship. That's always a great way to begin something deeper and more meaningful.

[Sailor Wind]

yea i agree with u dream, it can start to grow on you no matter how long you have known each other for as friends or enemies.
i suppose you can create a romantic relationship in any possible way and usagi and mamoru has shown that to us and also shown it can be done.

[peachvampiress]

I'm sorry, but I just can't read that, it's way too long. I'm with Tiff in that it seems pointless in debating a fictious relationship from a children's show, but I just want to say my opinion. Maybe if we were talking about characters in a classic novel (like Phantom of the Opera, or Alice in Wonderland) I'd give more of a damn, but for now this is just a half ass decent response.

I don't think you can talk about Usagi and Mamoru's relationship in the anime and manga interchangeably as they are different people in both versions. Usagi seems less forgiving in the manga (she kills her enemies without hesitation where as in the anime she tried to help them) and personally I find that Mamoru isn't a prick in the manga. Also, their relationship develops faster in the manga, where as in the anime there was a lot more fillers, meaning more chances for them to bitch at each other.

Refering to the anime, before Usagi learns the truth about Mamoru being tuxedo Kamen, she views them as different people (obviously because she doesn't know they're the same). Kamen is a romantic masked man who saves her, while Mamoru is a dick who feels the need to insult her grades and her appearance (i.e. her hair). It's pretty much vice versa for Mamoru. To him, Sailor Moon is a mysterious woman with amazing powers, while Usagi is an immature little screecher who's dumb as smeg.

I'm pretty sure I've said this, but I'll say it again. Their's evidence that she still hated him right before she learned the truth. As quoted from Castle in The Sky Sailor Moon:

When Mamoru and Usagi are trapped in the elevator, he explains to her why he is trying to find the Silver Crystal; how his parents died when he was six years old and he lost his memory, and about his dream in which a mysterious girl tells him that finding the crystal will solve all his problems. In Japanese she says that she had hated Mamoru more than anyone else in the world, but that she would put him second now.

I highly doubt she loved him at that moment, but that's just my opinion.

I just don't care enough to continue, but I just want to say this. Sailor Moon, it's alright that they hated each other before dating. I've hated many people in my life, some who I wanted to hurt, but I've become good friends with a lot of them now. Hell, the guy I like now and am trying to get, I couldn't stand him and didn't even want to talk to him. People change and have different opinions on people as things happen. Although Usagi and Mamoru are not real, thus we can't truely now what they felt, I think most people here will agree with me that they hated each other, then changed their opinions about one another.

That's all from me, I really don't want to continue here because I usually hate reading into something so trivial, but knowing me I probably will

[Tempest]

o_o ....

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said. What the hell, I'll comment anyay.

First of all, I have watched their relationship from the start, since the first episode I saw was one of the first episodes, this was in 1995, so I watched their love from the beginning. They are dating and in love and together, so anyone who says they don't have feelings for each other is wrong, because they are together and a couple, so they do love eachother, because people who are together are in love.

To my recollection and interpritation of your post, Usagi and Mamoru never dated in the first season. It started with Usagi tossing her failed test on Mamoru's head and sticking her tounge at has critiques to Preincess Serenity fighting Beryle/Metellia/Whatever. Since Mamoru was taken or "kidnapped" and turned evil, They were enemies. The next time Usagi faced Mamoru as allies he was lying wounded on the ground. Yes, Mamoru was able to express his feelings to Usagi, but they still didn't date. He was more like, wounded and lying on the ground.

Mamoru's course in Classic.
Petty Odango Bickoring > Tuxedo Mask > petty fighting upgrades to a slight friendship/annoyance > Ginzoushou > Past Memories and Emotion > Evil > High-Scale Fighting > Love conquers all > Half-dead on the ground > Princess Serenity Fights Beryle > Transmigration

No room for dating. Barely room for a mutual love. They were literally fighting for most of the series. Either they both disliked eachother, or Usagi loved Mamoru, but Mamoru was evil and fighting Sailor Moon. The only times where were face to face as a mutual love was after the appearence of the Silver Crystal and right before the final battle.

If I misinterprated that, then please clear that up.

------

As for my comments on the subject at hand.
Much like the majority, I don't beleive that they were in love at the begining. There was too much animosity and bickoring between them to have room for a romance. There was concern, but concern is not a trademark of love. There are people I barely tolerate to be around, but if something happens, I'll still be concerned. It's just a trait of a kind-hearted and empathetic nature.

Usagi had, as RoastedTwinkies put it, silly crush fantasies of Tuxedo Mask. It was often mentioned, or atleaste joked about, that Usagi didn't understand love. She thought that the Crushes she had on Motoiki and Tuxedo Mask were signs of true love. It wasn't until after the appearence of the Silver Crystal that Usagi understood love.
Mamoru displayed no romantice feelings toward Usagi or Sailormoon. He just showed up as Tuxedo Mask to get Sailormoon's bacon out of the fryer and occasionally talked to Usagi and gave her advice if it's something she desperately needed. He had shown no romantic intrests in Usagi or Sailormoon.

[yoshmaster5]

good lord Sailor Moon... think you put enough thought into that?

On Topic...

I'm really not sure. But in my opinion, it dosen't matter. It's just a TV show/Manga. not an end of the world thing.

[Rainbow]

Sailor Moon: You have some interesting points about the beginning of R. I've only seen it on raw Japanese for the most part, but so far as I can tell, Mamoru is at least kinder to Usagi in that part, even though his memory has been erased. In love with Usagi or not, I do think he goes through a personality change from the first season to the second (and the rest of the story as well). Basically, he seems to become quieter and less of a macho guy. At least, that's just my perception of him. So maybe, because he's not trying to be as tough and macho as he did in the first season, maybe he SEEMS like he loves Usagi more then? I don't know, that's just a guess. Then again, some guys who are trying to look macho act more "romantic," so it could go either way.