Plot Holes

[LadyFlameSniper]

I noticed something else about the R movie though. The flashback of Usagi with Mamoru in the hospital as children. If it did take place during the series timeline, then Usagi and Mamoru really did meet when they were kids? Usagi introduced herself too so Mamoru knew her name. The series makes it seem as if they met for the very first time when Usagi got that bad test score and threw it at Mamoru. Did they just forget?

3) The movies. I always saw R as taking place anytime during the R season, since it seems to only last a day or so. They henshin once, fight the monster, teleport to the asteroid, stop Fiore, come home. As for S, the real fight with Kaguya only took maybe one day. They could have fought anytime during the regular S season (post-grail, of course), or it could be after the rest of the season.

the S movie couldn't be after the S season. It would have to be sometime before Mistress 9 awoke but after the Holy Grail appeared. Because, like I pointed out earlier, the Holy Grail was destroyed before the end. Interesting theories there, though.

[Tiff]

I noticed something else about the R movie though. The flashback of Usagi with Mamoru in the hospital as children. If it did take place during the series timeline, then Usagi and Mamoru really did meet when they were kids? Usagi introduced herself too so Mamoru knew her name. The series makes it seem as if they met for the very first time when Usagi got that bad test score and threw it at Mamoru. Did they just forget?

I often wondered that myself while watching the R movie..but really. Usagi was a very, very small child, so she probably didn't remember the encounter happening until the ginzuishou helped her remember. And as for Mamoru..hell, his memory's so damn fuzzy anyway. By the time the first season starts, he barely knows his own name -_- So it's possible he simply didn't connect the fact that the Usagi he meets as a teen isn't the same Usagi he met years ago. *shrugs* I'm not sure how common a name "Usagi" would be, but I suppose it might be like if I met a "Lisa" years ago, and didn't connect it with a "Lisa" later.

[Umino]

I think I found another plothole..

Kaorinite's revival. Okay, she was hit by a Sailor Planet Attack, World Shaking, was turned into an ICE CUBE, and fell a great fall. How the hell did Tomoe bring her back to life? It must've been a mess, her body was problemly in 1000 tiny pieces.

[Rainbow]

Magic. He can create daimons, why not resurrect one of his minions. Either that or he cloned her DNA but she was suddenly full-grown, like in the first Pokemon movie with the Pokemon clones that can fight and are fully evolved when they come out of the tubes.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

Why wouldn't you attack a planet someone else is invading? All Kisenian cared about was life energy. She'd take whoever's energy. Besides, I doubt there's an evil memo floating around. "Death Phantom is invading the Earth. Everyone else stay away. Also, the restrooms in the East Cosmos will be closed for cleaning on the 27th. Thank you."

As for the Usagi/Mamoru thing, I'm going with either he forgot her (remember too, he was facing serious trauma at the time. Parents dead, best friend leaving, it's unlikely for him to remember much of anything.) or that, when Usagi reincarnated everyone at the end of Classic, she and Mamoru met years beforehand. Also, if I recall correctly, in the beginning of Classic, while it may seem like Usagi and Mamoru have just met, it also seems like they've bumped into eachother before. They're awfully familiar for complete strangers.

[Tiff]

Why wouldn't you attack a planet someone else is invading? All Kisenian cared about was life energy. She'd take whoever's energy. Besides, I doubt there's an evil memo floating around. "Death Phantom is invading the Earth. Everyone else stay away. Also, the restrooms in the East Cosmos will be closed for cleaning on the 27th. Thank you."

*SNORT*
LMFAO

I am dead. Seriously.

That literally KILLED me.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

You type awfully well for a corpse. ^^;; *pokes teh Tiffu-zombie*

*coughs* Now back on topic.

[Tiff]

CUNNILINGUS AND BRAAAINS!
CUNNILINGUS AND BRAAAAAINS!

*hits self with on-topic stick*

[Starscream]

Also, if I recall correctly, in the beginning of Classic, while it may seem like Usagi and Mamoru have just met, it also seems like they've bumped into eachother before. They're awfully familiar for complete strangers.

I've always attributed that to their subconscious, reincarnated selves recalling their life during the Silver Millennium.

[Cardcaptor Takato]

Why wouldn't you attack a planet someone else is invading? All Kisenian cared about was life energy. She'd take whoever's energy. Besides, I doubt there's an evil memo floating around. "Death Phantom is invading the Earth. Everyone else stay away. Also, the restrooms in the East Cosmos will be closed for cleaning on the 27th. Thank you."

Because it would just seem pointless to do so. If the only thing Kisensian cared about was life energy, why couldn't she work together with the Black Moon? They could let her drain the energy of every human and then let them rule the planet. Plus, it doesn't feel very "animeish." It seems like in anime the villians always invade the earth in an orderly fashion with the weakest villians first followed by the stronger villians and almost always one after the other.

[ParaKiss_Groupie]

Why wouldn't you attack a planet someone else is invading? All Kisenian cared about was life energy. She'd take whoever's energy. Besides, I doubt there's an evil memo floating around. "Death Phantom is invading the Earth. Everyone else stay away. Also, the restrooms in the East Cosmos will be closed for cleaning on the 27th. Thank you."

Because it would just seem pointless to do so. If the only thing Kisensian cared about was life energy, why couldn't she work together with the Black Moon? They could let her drain the energy of every human and then let them rule the planet. Plus, it doesn't feel very "animeish." It seems like in anime the villians always invade the earth in an orderly fashion with the weakest villians first followed by the stronger villians and almost always one after the other.

But it doesn't have to happen that way is my point. And who is to say that Kisenian would even know if the Black Moon was invading? You yourself said that the only time she could possibly invade would be after the Black Moon has been defeated. So, what's the problem there? There was no one invading the Earth at the time she attacked. So why argue over whether or not she would invade the Earth with someone else doing it?

Oh, and remember this: Most SM villians have been backstabbers. What reason would any of them have to trust another villian to work with them?

And Starscream, that's a good point, and probably what it is.

[Tiff]

I'm gonna have to agree with Parakisu, here. You JUST said that it couldn't hav ehappened at any other time other than that little break between Black Moon and when Chibiusa comes home. Therefore, the fact that the black moon was there before is IRRELEVENT, becuase the Kisenian comes AFTER the Black Moon is defeated.

And the damn thing wants life energy. That's all it cares about.

[Starscream]

You yourself said that the only time she could possibly invade would be after the Black Moon has been defeated. So, what's the problem there?

Well, there is a SLIGHT problem with having the R movie occur at the end of the R season; the movie occurs during the summer, but it's winter at the end of R ^^;;

The reason that the S and SuperS movies don't fit is simple: Sailor Pluto. Haruka and Michiru are surprised to see her in Stars, which means that they had assumed her dead during the end of S and SuperS. There COULD be some leeway here, however; perhaps, like Parakiss suggested, the movie occurs sometime after Usagi gets the grail but before Pluto dies. It just doesn't work for SuperS, however ^^

[Tiff]

You yourself said that the only time she could possibly invade would be after the Black Moon has been defeated. So, what's the problem there?

Well, there is a SLIGHT problem with having the R movie occur at the end of the R season; the movie occurs during the summer, but it's winter at the end of R ^^;;

...

I curse you and your logic.

CURSE IT, I SAY.

[LadyFlameSniper]

Well, there is a SLIGHT problem with having the R movie occur at the end of the R season; the movie occurs during the summer, but it's winter at the end of R ^^;;

The reason that the S and SuperS movies don't fit is simple: Sailor Pluto. Haruka and Michiru are surprised to see her in Stars, which means that they had assumed her dead during the end of S and SuperS. There COULD be some leeway here, however; perhaps, like Parakiss suggested, the movie occurs sometime after Usagi gets the grail but before Pluto dies. It just doesn't work for SuperS, however ^^

Wow I never even noticed that the seasons of the year were different in the R movie and the end of the season. o_OGood observation


And yeah Sailor Uranus says in the first episode of Stars, (quoted from Hitoshi Doi's summary) "Is it really you, Sailor Pluto?"

To me, that indicates that Uranus is surprised to see Pluto because she thought she was dead, and Uranus looked surprised...

And how about this? After that line Pluto says "There is a big warp in the time-line."

that could explain why she's alive again, and also goes with Parakiss' theory with how she's revived. I don't remember this line being translated in the fansubs the same way, but the summary is probably more reliable.

[Vesta]

Another thing I noticed. Right after Demando dies in R, the senshi and Tuxedo Kamen show up, but nobody seems to notice the dead body right there! They didn't show it all after they showed up.

One answer I thought might be the reason for this is that Demando probably shimmered away when he died, so no one saw it.

[the dooky]

Some thoughts on explaining away some of these inconsistencies...

The movies and when they happen:

I'm not certain that the R movie does take place in summer, as the girls are wearing their winter uniforms. There are a lot of flowers around, true, but then this is also the case in episode 79 (the one where Artemis runs away), which was broadcast on Christmas Day, no less.

The S movie presents the fewest problems- it could have happened anywhere between Sailor Moon getting the Holy Grail and Mistress 9 awakening. The fact that Hotaru isn't around doesn't really mean anything. Incidentally, Lunar Archivist's FAQ makes an excellent argument for the movie occuring around episode 122.

The SuperS movie is only a problem if you assume that Uranus and Neptune's surprise at the beginning of Stars is really because they thought Pluto was dead. It may just have been a reaction to the fact that she was there at all. After all, Pluto doesn't stike me as the sort of person who casually drops by. She only shows up before or during a major crisis.

As for Pluto dying in S: I never really got this impression. Admittedly, I don't really have a watertight theory on what actually did happen, but I assumed that the shock from the Time Stop punched her into another dimension (or similar vague hand-waving sci-fi explanation), effectively incapacitating her for a while.

The Animamates/Star Seeds problem:

This is a nasty one. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that Galaxia knew that she was only after Sailor Senshi all along, and was just amusing herself with the Animamates, because she really does seem to care when they fail. Besides, the Animamates know that they are Sailor Senshi, and are presumably aware that Galaxia has their Star Seeds. They must be aware of the fact that Sailor Senshi have True Star Seeds. I suppose this raises some interesting questions about how many of their original memories the Animamates have, but we also know that Crow and Seiren are very experienced at collecting Star Seeds.

Now then, here's my theory.

I propose that-
a) Not all people with True Star Seeds are Sailor Senshi; and
b) Not all Sailor Senshi have True Star Seeds.

The first one, at least, we know to be true. Mamoru isn't a Sailor Senshi (vaguely associated with the Earth, yes, but not a Sailor Senshi), and yet he has a True Star Seed. Further evidence is when Iron Mouse goes after Seiya's Star Seed, and is surprised to discover that he's a Sailor Senshi.
The second point is more speculative, but I base it on Aluminium Siren's encounter with Sailor Moon, where she seems surprised to discover that Sailro Moon has a True Star Seed. If every single Sailor Senshi had one, then an experienced Star Seed hunter would not be surprised.

So here's what I think: The Animamates are dispatched to planets to recover the True Star Seeds held by non-Senshi. Taking them from Senshi may well be Galaxia's job. Siren and Crow may have pursued Sailor Moon just to impress Galaxia, since they were failing in their missions and coming back with Sailor Moon's Star Seed would heve been impressive. There's even some evidence (based on some admittedly ambiguous statements in episode 193) that Crow believed that returning with Sailor Moon's Star Seed would be enough to persuade Galaxia to revive Siren. So it's quite possible that taking the Star Seed of a Sailor Senshi was considered above the duties of the Animamates.


Onto another problem, namely how Pluto gets baby Hotaru off Tomoe at the beginning of Stars:

While I do like Suburban Senshi's theory that she just hits him over the head with the Garnet Rod, I think it's almost certain that Tomoe is in on the secret of the Sailor Senshi. Given that his daughter had somehow regressed to a baby, it's reasonable to assume that the Outer Senshi just told him that she was Sailor Saturn. Now, I realise that this doesn't completely explain why he'd willingly hand her over to Pluto, except that maybe she's a very persusaive speaker ^_~

dooky

[Aya Reiko]

Some thoughts on explaining away some of these inconsistencies...

The movies and when they happen:

I'm not certain that the R movie does take place in summer, as the girls are wearing their winter uniforms. There are a lot of flowers around, true, but then this is also the case in episode 79 (the one where Artemis runs away), which was broadcast on Christmas Day, no less.

The S movie presents the fewest problems- it could have happened anywhere between Sailor Moon getting the Holy Grail and Mistress 9 awakening. The fact that Hotaru isn't around doesn't really mean anything. Incidentally, Lunar Archivist's FAQ makes an excellent argument for the movie occuring around episode 122.

The SuperS movie is only a problem if you assume that Uranus and Neptune's surprise at the beginning of Stars is really because they thought Pluto was dead. It may just have been a reaction to the fact that she was there at all. After all, Pluto doesn't stike me as the sort of person who casually drops by. She only shows up before or during a major crisis.

As for Pluto dying in S: I never really got this impression. Admittedly, I don't really have a watertight theory on what actually did happen, but I assumed that the shock from the Time Stop punched her into another dimension (or similar vague hand-waving sci-fi explanation), effectively incapacitating her for a while.

The Animamates/Star Seeds problem:

This is a nasty one. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that Galaxia knew that she was only after Sailor Senshi all along, and was just amusing herself with the Animamates, because she really does seem to care when they fail. Besides, the Animamates know that they are Sailor Senshi, and are presumably aware that Galaxia has their Star Seeds. They must be aware of the fact that Sailor Senshi have True Star Seeds. I suppose this raises some interesting questions about how many of their original memories the Animamates have, but we also know that Crow and Seiren are very experienced at collecting Star Seeds.

Now then, here's my theory.

I propose that-
a) Not all people with True Star Seeds are Sailor Senshi; and
b) Not all Sailor Senshi have True Star Seeds.

The first one, at least, we know to be true. Mamoru isn't a Sailor Senshi (vaguely associated with the Earth, yes, but not a Sailor Senshi), and yet he has a True Star Seed. Further evidence is when Iron Mouse goes after Seiya's Star Seed, and is surprised to discover that he's a Sailor Senshi.
The second point is more speculative, but I base it on Aluminium Siren's encounter with Sailor Moon, where she seems surprised to discover that Sailro Moon has a True Star Seed. If every single Sailor Senshi had one, then an experienced Star Seed hunter would not be surprised.

So here's what I think: The Animamates are dispatched to planets to recover the True Star Seeds held by non-Senshi. Taking them from Senshi may well be Galaxia's job. Siren and Crow may have pursued Sailor Moon just to impress Galaxia, since they were failing in their missions and coming back with Sailor Moon's Star Seed would heve been impressive. There's even some evidence (based on some admittedly ambiguous statements in episode 193) that Crow believed that returning with Sailor Moon's Star Seed would be enough to persuade Galaxia to revive Siren. So it's quite possible that taking the Star Seed of a Sailor Senshi was considered above the duties of the Animamates.


Onto another problem, namely how Pluto gets baby Hotaru off Tomoe at the beginning of Stars:

While I do like Suburban Senshi's theory that she just hits him over the head with the Garnet Rod, I think it's almost certain that Tomoe is in on the secret of the Sailor Senshi. Given that his daughter had somehow regressed to a baby, it's reasonable to assume that the Outer Senshi just told him that she was Sailor Saturn. Now, I realise that this doesn't completely explain why he'd willingly hand her over to Pluto, except that maybe she's a very persusaive speaker ^_~

dooky

point 1- pluto's demise

Who says Stars Pluto is the same as S Pluto? We all know that even death doesn't stop the Sailor Senshi. Who knows, Puu probably knew what her fate was, and convinced NQS to be nearby by the Time Gate to "catch" her soul (or whatever you'd call it) as she perished, much in the same way QS did in the past. The vision of Pluto could either the next Pluto finishing the former self's work, or a message she made before her demise but delayed it's tranmission until the appropiate time. (meaning she knew her fate beforehand).

I find Puu is very much like a Vorlon. She's probably older than dirt, annihilates (almost) anyone who trespasses on her territory, cryptic as she choses to be, and probably knows a whole lot more about what's going on than she's allowing others to know.

point 2- Anima-mate's methods

or C) They're trying to catch them off-guard, but not knowing who is who forces them to attack semi-random targets. It's probably easier to deal with an off-guard Sailor than an alert one.

[Cardcaptor Takato]

That's an interesting idea, Aya. But I never thought Pluto had died until I read this thread....I always thought she just went back to guarding the gate of time.

[Umino]

Speaking of which, in'st the fact that it's snowing in episode 122 a plothole? Don'st S take place in the summer?