Thanks DiC. =P

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:40 pm

Tiff wrote:NameGoesHere & Starscream: ;_; thank you for saying Toonmakers instead of Saban. *Loves you forever*

And yes. I agree with both of you. SMU wouldn't be here, I wouldn't know about SM, and Derek and I wouldn't have met.

Also agreed. As much as I dislike the DiC dub, if it weren't for them, I would definately not know about SM at all and I probably wouldn't have met many of my friends who also enjoy the show.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:17 pm

NameGoesHere wrote:I don't think any of us here could say that the Toonmakers (also known as "It's not SABAN!!1one") adaptation is preferable to the DiC dub, regardless of cut scenes and supper-happy-fun-epileptic-cat-tap-dancing-on-a-synthesizer background music.

I'm going to commit blasphemy here and say that I might rather have had the Toon Makers version of Sailor Moon done. They might have stolen the concept, but the actors, the scripts, and the animation all would have been theirs. Who knows, it might even have been good. And had it been made, it would mean that the rights to bringing over the original Sailormoon would have been left open, and we might have gotten DVDs much sooner. They might have been able to translate the manga with the original names, since it would be essentially a different product that just happened to have the same name. This may be grass-is-greener thinking, but it would have been nice to have the Sailormoon animation untouched by bad CG, bad BGM and bad voice actors. To draw an analogy, which is more sacriligious: building a hidden altar to the devil or holding a black mass right in church?

Tempest · Post by **Tempest** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:29 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote: I'm going to commit blasphemy here and say that I might rather have had the Toon Makers version of Sailor Moon done. They might have stolen the concept, but the actors, the scripts, and the animation all would have been theirs. Who knows, it might even have been good. And had it been made, it would mean that the rights to bringing over the original Sailormoon would have been left open, and we might have gotten DVDs much sooner. They might have been able to translate the manga with the original names, since it would be essentially a different product that just happened to have the same name. This may be grass-is-greener thinking, but it would have been nice to have the Sailormoon animation untouched by bad CG, bad BGM and bad voice actors. To draw an analogy, which is more sacriligious: building a hidden altar to the devil or holding a black mass right in church?

I'm sorta enclined to agree. In some weird, disturbing way, I would have liked to see how Toon Makers would have done it. It could have been realy good, dispite the corny-ness, PC-ness of it all. At the same time I'm a bit afraid of how it would turn out.

Personally, I don't think it would open a doorway to the Japanese version or any form of peaceful cross over. We'd just have a large number of misinformed people shouting, "Japanese animators stole the idea of Sailor Moon from the Americans" or some such non-sense. I'm not saying that your version of possible events isn't plausible, but the negative aspects is how I see things.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:39 pm

Sailorasteroid

I'm going to commit blasphemy here and say that I might rather have had the Toon Makers version of Sailor Moon done.

...*smites you with the smitey stick*

Actually I can see your point, but I don't think that Toonmakers would have made things better. Sailormoon helped make anime more mainstream in North America and introduced people to it. I don't think that would have happened with Toonmaker's version. I think that if they did get the rights to it and fans later found out about the original version, they wouldn't give it a chance because it's completely different from the Toonmakers version, which they'd already be used to.

But I do agree about wanting to see Toonmakers version. It's like the Star Wars Christmas Special. You know it's totally going to suck, but you're dieing to see it, just to see how much it sucks.

There's got to be a pilot episode floating around somewhere. They couldn't have just filmed/drawn random scenes.

NameGoesHere · Post by **NameGoesHere** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:49 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:
NameGoesHere wrote:I don't think any of us here could say that the Toonmakers (also known as "It's not SABAN!!1one") adaptation is preferable to the DiC dub, regardless of cut scenes and supper-happy-fun-epileptic-cat-tap-dancing-on-a-synthesizer background music.
I'm going to commit blasphemy here and say that I might rather have had the Toon Makers version of Sailor Moon done. They might have stolen the concept, but the actors, the scripts, and the animation all would have been theirs. Who knows, it might even have been good. And had it been made, it would mean that the rights to bringing over the original Sailormoon would have been left open, and we might have gotten DVDs much sooner. They might have been able to translate the manga with the original names, since it would be essentially a different product that just happened to have the same name. This may be grass-is-greener thinking, but it would have been nice to have the Sailormoon animation untouched by bad CG, bad BGM and bad voice actors. To draw an analogy, which is more sacriligious: building a hidden altar to the devil or holding a black mass right in church?

I admit it. Now that I'm already in to Sailor Moon, I would like to see the Toonmakers version. Out of sheer curiosity, and possibly out of masochism. However, if the Toonmakers version is what was released for the North American audience in place of the dub, I don't think it would have attracted nearly as many fans as it did.

I can handle a certain level of corny-ness when it's accompanied by animation. After loving cartoons all of my life, and knowing nothing about anime (at the time), the often times ridiculous dialogue in the Sailor Moon dub didn't bother me. If it were a live action show with bits of animation, I would've thought of it as Power Rangers for girls, and changed the channel.

This may just be my opinion. For all I know, it could have become a huge hit and given us the scenario you mentioned. (Which, by the way, would have been amazingly lovely-rific.) But, as Peachy said, Sailor Moon really helped make anime mainstream in North America. In giving up the Sailor Moon dub, it is possible that we could have lost a lot of other series in the process.

On a completely off-topic note; to me, worshiping the Devil is worshiping the Devil, no matter where you do it. Besides, a Satanic ritual in the middle of a Christian church would be no more sacrilegious in my eyes than what some priests and reverends do while still preaching "the word" and pretending to be righteous. In fact, I would congratulate the Satanists for having the balls to do it. But, that's just me, and I'm weird.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:11 pm

Well, I'm also not sure anime going mainstream is such a good thing, at least not in the way it has. I liked it when fansubs were they way to go and if you were talking to an anime fan, you knew that odds were you were talking to an otaku. There are advantages to the way things are, like good DVDs, but there are also drawbacks.

Kameko · Post by **Kameko** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:44 am

You want to see what Toon Maker would have done? http://www.lizzard.net/SuperS/downloads/index.html Look under Other Assorted Videos. I'll let the video speak for itself.

Tempest · Post by **Tempest** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:35 pm

Kameko wrote:You want to see what Toon Maker would have done? http://www.lizzard.net/SuperS/downloads/index.html Look under Other Assorted Videos. I'll let the video speak for itself.

We know how it looks. Almost everyone has seen it. But I'd still like to know what it would be like. A recorded videotape with bad sound and awful video quality doesn't speak much for how the toon makers show would have been like.

Mark91 · Post by **Mark91** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:01 pm

I'm grateful they did it, back in the day I loved Sailormoon, the dub that is, watched it every day. Then as I got older it went off the air, and my sister got into it, and so did I, when I had internet I learned more and more about it, and the original. I got into it, and now I'm the obsessed moonie I am. Sure DIC wasn't that great, but it's better than none, right?
And half of you wouldn't even be here if it weren't for them, right?
I wish ToonMakers got it, it would have been hilarious
The henshin was cool.....thats about it.

Neo Dead Moon · Post by **Neo Dead Moon** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:11 pm

Mark91 wrote:Sure DIC wasn't that great, but it's better than none, right?

Not according to some fans. Some of them wished that Sailor Moon was never dubbed at all, thereby "purifying" the fanbase with those who've only see the original Japanese version, which I find to be a load of crap. I'd rather have a R1 DVD of an anime than have to watch it fansubbed from a lasterdisc, and the number of Sailor Moon fans who say they prefer watching it fansubbed make me roll my eyes.

Post by **Tiff** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:55 pm

Neo Dead Moon wrote:
Mark91 wrote:Sure DIC wasn't that great, but it's better than none, right?
Not according to some fans. Some of them wished that Sailor Moon was never dubbed at all, thereby "purifying" the fanbase with those who've only see the original Japanese version, which I find to be a load of crap. I'd rather have a R1 DVD of an anime than have to watch it fansubbed from a lasterdisc, and the number of Sailor Moon fans who say they prefer watching it fansubbed make me roll my eyes.

So you think it's a load of crap that some people don't want to see a favorite show dubbed? What is your basis for this opinion?

And what's wrong with just being happy with a fansub? I couldn't care less whether i'm watching it fansubbed or on dvd so long as I can read the subs and the picture quality is good. I've got EXCELLENT Stars fandubbed tapes. if they ever come out on dvd, I won't be buying them. I have no reason to.

Does this make you roll your eyes, too?

Cardcaptor Takato · Post by **Cardcaptor Takato** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:15 pm

And didn't Geneon use the Japanese laserdics for their master copies for Sailor Moon, anyway? I have Sailor Stars AVI fansubs I've burned on VCD, and I personally think they have better quality than both ADV's and Geneon's Sailor Moon releases, but that's just me.

Dinozore · Post by **Dinozore** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:57 pm

I think it was the people's attitudes (the "purifying the fanbase" thing) that he was calling "a load of crap", and I agree.

In my opinion, the "nothing should ever be licensed" people are just as bad as the "official versions are worse than fansubs" people, who are usually also "licensing is bad" people, and all of them tend to have these elitist attitudes..,

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:21 pm

Dinozore wrote:In my opinion, the "nothing should ever be licensed" people are just as bad as the "official versions are worse than fansubs" people, who are usually also "licensing is bad" people, and all of them tend to have these elitist attitudes..,

Hmm. . . that's pretty much me, though not so absolute. I do think that licensing often creates just as many problems as it solves. I have seen fansubs that are a lot better than the professional versions, and I do think there are people that anime fandom is better off without. Not everything has to be made accessible to every person. The kind of viewer of DIC's Sailor Moon, who thinks that anime exists independent of Japan and its culture deserves education, and if they continue to think in a bubble after they've been shown, deserves condemnation.

the dooky · Post by **the dooky** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:22 am

Tiff wrote:So you think it's a load of crap that some people don't want to see a favorite show dubbed? What is your basis for this opinion?

As long as there's a choice, there shouldn't be a problem. If you don't want to watch a dubbed version, then as long as there's a subbed version as well, it's not an issue.

There's nothing wrong with being happy with a fansub, either. Personally I'd snap up an official subbed version of Stars if one became available, but that's just me.

But there is a problem with the "all dubs are bad" lobby. Whether or not you want to watch dubs is a matter of personal choice, but there are those people who actively campaign against the very existence of dubs. Which is stupid. If you don't want to hear it, you don't have to. I'm not likely to listen to the French language track on my Futurama DVDs, but you don't see me ranting about how French dubbing is a waste of money and destroying the artistic merit of the series.

As for myself, I'm generally pro-dub, so it pains me to see the poor quality of Sailor Moon's dubbing. But the main problem wasn't the quality of the dubbing itself, it was the fact that so much was wilfully altered or cut. Much of this was totally understandable from a commercial standpoint... becuase, let's face it, Sailor Moon was being marketed at kids, not anime fans. It's no wonder that anime fans generally find the American dub of Sailor Moon to be unsatisfying, because it wasn't made with them in mind.

I would dearly love to see a proper, high-quality dub of Sailor Moon aimed at anime fans. It's not likely to happen, but I'd like to see it one day. Don't get me wrong- I'm perfectly happy with the subbed versions I have, but with many series I find that a good dub adds a whole new element to a show, which can be particularly enjoyable if it's something you've previously seen subbed. I'd look upon re-watching all of Sailor Moon, in a completely new format, with some enthusiasm.

dooky

Tempest · Post by **Tempest** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:08 pm

the dooky wrote: But there is a problem with the "all dubs are bad" lobby. Whether or not you want to watch dubs is a matter of personal choice, but there are those people who actively campaign against the very existence of dubs. Which is stupid. If you don't want to hear it, you don't have to. I'm not likely to listen to the French language track on my Futurama DVDs, but you don't see me ranting about how French dubbing is a waste of money and destroying the artistic merit of the series.

I completely agree. I think it's cool that people like one version over the other, like to prefer subs over dubs. But i think this entire sub vs. dub war is completely stupid. Much like you I am pretty much pro-dub, but with each series my preference varies. I could like a dub better or a sub better. Sometimes I like them both equally. If you hate the english audio track to a DVD don't watch it. You spent money for the luxury of have dual audio tracks. opt to watch the Japanese w/english subtitle. If you hate the english version then state it, but don't harp on it over and over, and over again.

But what I think aggravates me the most about 'all dubs suck' is the presumption that all dubs available suck. I have problems with that because that implies that you've seen every_ single_ dub ever made. Unless your ass-rich that's pretty impossible. It's far easier, and more intelligent to just say, "All the dubs I've seen so far have sucked".

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:14 pm

I must say that I almost enjoyed the dub. Why? Because it was so hilarious and stupid that many many times I fell on the floor laughing... hard. XD When I watched the first episode, it wasn't all that bad, though it is butchered up on many levels. But the dub with all the stupid annoying mistakes and bad VAs was almost funnier than the original because, as I said before, it was so sickenly awful that it became good again. And I also must say that I like a lot of voices even if they are given stupid pointless dialogues, for example the villains. Man, I never laughed so hard. *grin* All in all, the dub is acceptable, but I still like the original more, so whatever. ;P

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:53 pm

I'll say this much.

Thank you, DiC, for introducing me to what has become my favorite series ever. When I was 12 and in grade 7 your dubbed version was my favorite thing on TV. The content of the original show was so strong that no matter how much you butchered it it kept my interest alive and I've now been able to view the series as it was meant to be seen.

I might hate what you did to the show but without you I probably wouldn't have ever had an interest in it to find out the difference.

SailorLunagoddess · Post by **SailorLunagoddess** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:34 pm

I don't know who's fault it is, or whether or not there is a specific someone to blame, but I blame Dic for their horrible cover up of the way that a certain relationship (Kunzite and Zoycite) actually was, and also the infamous change from lovers to cousins that Uranus and Neptune had to suffer. It's intolerance like that that keeps our children questioning whether or not its OK to be gay. If anything, I think that having gay anime characters would help as role models. Someone to look up to, like any other straight super hero or heroine.

I think that the original Japanese story lines were perfect the way that they were, and should never have been changed. Kids in Japan were able to deal with the truth, why can't the kids in the U.S?

I also think that because the dynamic of these two relationships were changed, it gives Toei good reason not to release Stars in the U.S.
Just imagine what they would do with a dubbed version of that series and what they would cover up.

Down with editing.

purplefeltangel · Post by **purplefeltangel** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:21 pm

SailorLunagoddess wrote:I don't know who's fault it is, or whether or not there is a specific someone to blame, but I blame Dic for their horrible cover up of the way that a certain relationship (Kunzite and Zoycite) actually was, and also the infamous change from lovers to cousins that Uranus and Neptune had to suffer. It's intolerance like that that keeps our children questioning whether or not its OK to be gay. If anything, I think that having gay anime characters would help as role models. Someone to look up to, like any other straight super hero or heroine.

I think that the original Japanese story lines were perfect the way that they were, and should never have been changed. Kids in Japan were able to deal with the truth, why can't the kids in the U.S?

I also think that because the dynamic of these two relationships were changed, it gives Toei good reason not to release Stars in the U.S.
Just imagine what they would do with a dubbed version of that series and what they would cover up.

First of all, the series with Sailors Uranus and Neptune were dubbed by Cloverway, not DiC.

But getting that out of the way, most of the writers for Cloverway were the same ones as the DiC writers anyway. The reason that the show was better was because there was a new TV ratings system for childrens' shows, so they could relax a bit.

You cannot say that changing a gay relationship in something that was marketed as a childrens' show is intolerance. It is good business. It's not DiC's or Cloverway's responsibility to instill tolerance in the minds of children.

Especially ten years ago, leaving in this relationship would have been impossible. Even now the show would have been yanked off the air. Look at "Postcards from Buster." *One* episode had a five-minute segment with a pair of lesbians, who were not referred to as such, and their relationship was not made hugely obvious. The show was met with such controversy that it was cancelled. Would anyone have wanted that from Sailor Moon? No. Corporations play it safe. Expecting them to sell homosexuality to five-year-olds is ridiculous.

Furthermore, kids in Japan may be able to deal with "the truth," but homosexuality in Japan is treated with an entirely different attitude than in the US. There is a huge cultural barrier here. Children still say "ew, that's gay" when they see something they don't like. They call people "faggots." This is not an environment in which you can successfully bring a loving homosexual relationship.

And you know, the real reason that Toei doesn't want Stars released in North America is that it would be a waste of money. The series would be too edgy for children, but the editing would have to take place, so the niche market (small in the first place) wouldn't enjoy it as much. Considering still that the entire series is available freely on the Internet and through VKLL and bootleggers, so few people would be likely to pick up the series that it would never fare well.

A TV release would gain more exposure, but would be another grand waste of money, because I doubt any network would want it (considering Sailor Moon unprofitable) and one that might would stick it on near midnight.

I think things are destined to stay the way they are with Sailor Moon, no matter how much the fan market wants to change it. We seem like a big community on the Internet, but in the grand scheme of things, the history of Sailor Moon, the attitudes towards it currently and the nature of the fifth season make us a tiny, voiceless drop in the sea of people to whom a release of Stars would mean nothing.