Using forums

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:11 am

I bet you have all read that little dispute there was in another thread over Tiff's so-called "attitude" towards a member.

Now, if you've read the thread, you've seen what I think. But I think there is a point that we could discuss, and since it belongs to how this (and other) forum works, I put it here.

Indeed let's discuss how you think Tiff's so-called "attitude" made the SMU forums as they are now.

Then, I thought you could put in your thoughts about what annoys you about the use of forums, a kind of "pet peeves" list, not restricted to here.

Then, if you have any moderating/admin experience, you can tell us the difference between "your board" and here (it's not about adverstising other boards, though).

I know it looks a bit awkward to raise such points, but I felt it was interesting, since some people seem to have different views. I hope we will keep this to civilized discussion, and that we will all benefit (in some way) from each other's posts.

n_n

Jumbled Thoughts · Post by **MarioKnight** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:16 am

Please note that Akarui discussed this with me before posting, asking if this was a good idea to make this thread or not, and I felt that this thread has great discussion potential. So I really ask that if one cannot add something relevant and add on to the discussion maturly and such, to not post so that this thread can go along its intended course. Technically, this goes with all threads, but with the care of this thread I thought it would be important to point that out. Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to the discussion this thread will bring.

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:12 am

So I'll start answering myself, then n_n .

As for Tiff's way of dealing with the posts and how it made SMU like this: perfect, I have to say. Really, I said that in another post, she is an example...... that I can't really follow for the moment, see below why.

As for my pet peeves list on forums... this one would be kinda obvious, but still.

1) The easy-to-fix mistake that isn't fixed. I.e, anything concerning spamming or double-posting. Certain people don't seem to grasp the concept that there are forums where you can edit your own posts o.O.

2) The "I'm right whatever you can say so don't bother talking". I.e, any person talking about something, but coming back at his/her opinion unchanged without explaining anything. Like (a stupid example on purpose) :

Person A : I think the Moon is red.
Person B : No, you're wrong, see the Moon is white.
A : But I say the Moon is red.
B : See, here is a picture, the moon is white, it shines bright at night!
A : Don't bother! The moon is RED, I told you already!

You get the kind of converstation, huh.

3) The repeating of the same thing over and over on each post.
4) The continuation of an attitude that has already been denounced by the mods/admins.
5) The bashing of any other member with no reason whatsoever.
6) The non-reading-of-the-rules and then the "but I didn't see it!" when the rules are clearly present on the forum.

There would be more, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Then, my experience. I've been a member of a french board for the series Ojamajo Doremi for two years, and have been "appointed" mod a year ago, and admin around this February. Well... this is a nice experience, because it's as on SMU, I met nice people. But, I learnt a few things:

1) If your board is about a series that targets children, prepare your nerves. Most members will be children who don't even know what they are doing or talking about.
2) Be prepared to have a team of mods that like each other, but don't like each other's methods. I've been officially "told off" quite a few times about my methods. u_u Not that I think it's wrong, mind you, but because it was quite ironical.

And why was I "told off" (dunno if the term is right ?) ? Well, because I did indeed try to do what Tiff does. The follow-the-rules-thats-all thing. I used to be friendly, you know, the silly type one, laughing, joking with everyone, being off-topic, that kind of stuff. Then I realized we couldn't go on like that, cause the youngsters ( age from 8 to 11, really) had taken over and it was chaos. And all the "good ol' members" were all leaving and getting bored. So I started being like Tiff, a bit more strict, and what did I get ? One of the mods telling me that I was too strict, that I didn't need to be "mean" or "ironical" with members, that they were children...

I answered I would try to be *nice* but not *too cool* Like, today, I saw that there seemed to be a "war" starting between two people that knew each other IRL, and they started to say things that made it look like this war so I said : I don't care about your real life problems. Don't come here to resolve them. And the mod says "You didn't see it was a joke" and I said "You didn't see that even if it's a joke it looks like a stupid guerilla so I had to stop it" .

See for yourself here :

http://forum.magicaldoremi.net if you speak some French. I'm still Akarui Kibuno there.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:10 am

To best express my pet peeves, let me engage in a little (well, a lot actually; long post ahead) apostrophe here, and speak to the type of person who doesn't like the way things are run around here.

If you want unlimited license to say whatever you want, start a diary.

If you want unlimited license to say whatever you want and you want people to see it, start a webpage.

If you want unlimited licence to say whatever you want and you want to *make* people read it, then you've got to give them something in return. What I mean is, probably 99% of us came to this board from the main smuncensored.com site. We didn't come looking for forums, we came looking for Sailormoon dub/sub comparisons. Now, having a captive audience, Bob, Dan, and Tiff could have set up the forums in any way they wanted. They could say to play it deuces wild. Off topic? Who cares? Under 13? Like that law is ever enforced. Flame wars? Have at it, just remember that we rule the roost and we're better than you.

Now, if you can come up with a site people want to go to, please, by all means, use it to serve your ego and obtain followers, if that's what you really want. Likewise, if you want to complain about something Sailormoon-related that isn't true but, in your opinion, should be, please, write your own manga/anime. If it's one-tenth as popular as Sailormoon, you'll have people on the web thinking and writing on your sole word. You're free to turn characters into bitches when they've always been nice, to say that character A has really been in love with character B forever even though they never showed it, or to accept the theories of your fans and make their opinions true. But until the day you wake up in the body of Takeuchi Naoko, your opinions on Sailormoon may be wrong.

That's the counter-example, now here's why SMU is different. What we've done, staff and users, is to cut out a tiny corner of the Internet and sacrifice a little bit of personal freedoms to gain a measure of peace and decorum. There's another place where this model works. You may have heard of it. It's called real life. Every time I post I have to ask myself: Is this relevant? Has this been said elsewhere? Is this going to cause more offense than edification? More than once my posts have ended at the bottom of my own recycle bin. I've given others the last word on something, even though I had more to say, for the ideal of harmony. When I've absolutely got to have the last word on something, I say it to myself, and no one contradicts me.

The problem with being civilized is all the barbarians at the gates. People come here fresh from unmoderated forums and then express shock when the same actions get different results. It's not actual rebellion; the person simply knows nothing else. Elsewhere, you can start a post with, "I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but," and suddenly the rules of relevance no longer apply to you. Your intention, your awareness of the rules, makes you immune to them. But guess what? The post is still going to be off-topic, and all your good intentions won't change that. Here, it's not your intentions that matter. Hate the rules if you want; just follow them.

Maybe what we need is a banner on top of the site saying, "Common sense required," or a clause in the rules saying, "Listen, if you're a jerk, a troll, or just of sub-average intelligence, we won't hold any of that against you if you go away now. You know who you are." But still a few of those people would come. You can't win. You're not going to gain control of this board without an armed assault on Oswego. We have mods and admins working basically 24/7 to enforce the rules. And they have the means. You know them, bans, post-deletes, and not least of all intellegence. Those means were wrought of a desire to hold discussion based on interpersonal respect. Around here, right makes might.

So if you're warned, or banned, or your post modified, then before you complan of the motes in the staff's eyes, cast out the beam in yours. If the staff is truly unfair, the board will disintegrate. But you know they're not. And when you reach the point when you realize that your writing is your responsibility, you will also know how wonderful it feels to write something you think, and that people will want to see. I have enjoyed writing my posts when I knew they fell within the rules because I knew I had expressed myself fairly and that others would do so too. It is a much better feeling than simply shouting your head off.

Celexa · Post by **Celexa** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

First I'm going to comment on Tiffu's way of running the forums. I think that that, along with the other admins and mods who use similar methods, work best. On the thread if Off Topic about forum horror stories, I mentioned this "Ushi no Tane" board. I checked back on it, and it's still in total chaos! I could not find ONE locked topic where it should have been. Repeats and repeats of topics. For example, there are about five threads about pregnancy during marriage. To top it all off, you can only get married to one girl, thus it's all the same! Plus the admin (Who hasn't appointed any mods) never LOCKS anything, just edits it. For example, she edited one post to say
"The goddess knows everything..."
How does that help the person know what they've done wrong, or even really fix the problem?! I think the mods and admin's way of telling us what's wrong and locking a topic if it's a repeat helps keep this forum in order and have discussions worth coming to.

My pet peeves on forums:

1) Those stupid "bump" posts that knock a thread to the top of the page. Those have to be the stupidest posts people can make.

2) When people make fun of other members to the point the member is ready to ask for account cancellation altogehter (And nothing is done about it, be it by staff or other members), and when asked why, the member replies "Because they're new."

3) When people don't read rules. Just about ALL boards have posted their rules in some form, so it's annoying when someone doesn't read them and does something stupid. On my own board, the rules are the very first thing on the very first forum, and I state "When posting, don't change the font color." A member changed the font color (To something rather blinding to boot) the very next post she made!

4) When pictures are put in signatures. I know that this is OK on most forums, but it's still annoying. A lot of pictures are HUGE and horizontal. Not only does it look bad, but it's always direct linked to boot, and takes forever and a day to load up.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:58 pm

I'll start with my pet peeves about message boards first.

Just about all my pet peeves have already been said.

It really annoys me when people show attitude or deny it when they are told by a mod or admin that they did something wrong. It also bothers me when people simply state their opinion in a stupid and blunt way without backing up why they feel as they do. Things such as sticky caps are also annoying because it's very hard to read. I shouldn't have to read something more than once to understand what a person is trying to say.

Person A: rEi Is SuCh A BiTcH I Dunt LiKe HeR.
Person A: sHe's tO MeAn tO SeReNa SeRenA's aLs0 VeRy StUpId.
Mod: Please don't double post and refrain from using sticky caps. It would also be very appreciated if you check your spelling.
Person A: WhY ShOulD I?

Stuff like double posting has already been mentioned, but it's people with this kind of attitude that irks me the most. There's just no excuse for rude and unnecessary posts like that, especially when it's clearly stated in the board rules that you may not double post and you must show respect to all members of the board.

It's also very irritating when people try to promote their own fan work whatever it may be when a board clearly states that promoting your work is unacceptable. I don't usually care for fan work, so I shouldn't have to see it plastered all over a board when it isn't allowed.

If it wasn't for Tiff, Dan and Bob (and the mods) controlling the boards, then it would be complete chaos with flame wars going on all the time. It's great to have an admin or mod to warn or ban someone about this type of crap to keep the boards running smoothly.
That's my two cents for now.

doodlebuguk · Post by **doodlebuguk** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:58 pm

First about Tiff's way of running the forum:

Personally, yeah, I feel Tiff and all the moderators are doing a great job running this forum. The forum is very neat and it's easy to find information, not having to search through tonnes of pointless posts and threads. The fact that the rules are stricter than alot of forums I have visited is for the better, there seems to be a sense of order here which I haven't found in many other places online; most are just filled up with spam and repeated threads.

I know a lot of people may feel that the moderators here are too strict, but you see, that's their job, to moderate the forum, to keep the rules enforced so the forum can be enjoyed by everyone, and to help people who are have problems or queries to do with the forum.

And now onto pet peeves:

Probably, what I refer to as, ahem, 'n00b bashing.' Basically, established forum members who pick on people who are new to the forum. Like calling them 'n00bies' (the spelling I've seen used

) and just generally unnessersarily teasing them. It just makes the newcomers feel really unwelcome. I mean, we were all new once, I don't see why people should be picked on because they are new. I'm so glad this doesn't happen here.

Another thing, I think this has been already said, is animated avatars and signatures. OK, why are these needed? They take a long time to load for people on dial-up and they are really distracting when you are trying to read peoples' posts.

Rainbow · Post by **Rainbow** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:32 pm

The mods of this forum I think they've done a pretty good job, really. But there's one thing that I wonder about Tiff, and there's probably no way to prove it unless someone comes in here and tests my theory, but I've been wondering, would she be just as hard on someone who constantly mentioned how much they love Seiya and Usagi as she is to, say, Sailor Moon for talking about Mamoru, whom Tiff doesn't like? Now I'm probably wrong about this, especially since she let me keep some pretty silly topics that she didn't like but didn't lock. Of course, since we're all human, who knows whether I'd end up taking the side of a Taiki fan unfairly on a forum I had or whether or not I'd be extra hard on a Seiya fan? I'm not sure, I'd hope I wouldn't, but then again, I've never had to deal with that on the forum I've been in charge of.

Edit: I apologize, I think I'm just putting my own biases and tendencies on Tiff, which I shouldn't do.

Pet Peeves on Forums
1) Pictures posted in posts that are big.
2) Pompous moderators you have to listen to because it's their forum. (I'm not talking about anyone specifically on this forum, I'm thinking of one on another forum that I've been on...she scares me)

I can't really think of any others, really, but I might later. Personally, some of the dumb posts on this forum are ones I've thought were funny rather than annoying BECAUSE of their stupidity.

One More Thing
Sailorasteroid, this is just my personal belief, but opinions are never wrong because that's just what they are, opinions. Now if someone says their opinions are facts, now that can be a big problem.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:43 pm

Rainbow wrote:Hmm...two different things...
The mods of this forum I think they've done a pretty good job, really. But there's one thing that I wonder about Tiff, and there's probably no way to prove it unless someone comes in here and tests my theory, but I've been wondering, would she be just as hard on someone who constantly mentioned how much they love Seiya and Usagi as she is to, say, Sailor Moon for talking about Mamoru, whom Tiff doesn't like? Now I'm probably wrong about this, especially since she let me keep some pretty silly topics that she didn't like but didn't lock.

How about you ask Tiff herself, hrm?

Let's get something straight. This isn't a place where I intend to play favorites. If someone repeated themselves constantly about Seiya and Usagi, I would STILL treat them the same way as someone who repeats themselves about Mamoru and Usagi.

It really saddens me to know that you think the only reason I have reprimanded Sailor Moon (and for the record, Rainbow, I have not been the only mod who has gotten onto her for this) is becuase I don't care for Mamoru. What the FUCK? I'm sorry, but my opinions of cartoon characters are not what make my decisions when I mod.

It's funny. i'm not the only one who got onto Sailor Moon, but yet I'm the only one you managed to come up with some hairbrained theory for. Thanks. That felt good, it really did. Felt bloody fantastic.

Ni-ban Neko · Post by **Ni-ban Neko** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:58 pm

I think one of the major strengths that all the mods here share is their ability not to let personal issues get in the way of their decision-making.

A counter-example of this is a very small forum I read and occasionally post to. This forum has 3 co-administrators and no other mods, and two of these co-administrators dated for quite a long time. This led to a lot of two-against-one splits on things - and one of the mods admitted that he was going along with his girlfriend on a lot of the decisions not because he thought they were right, but so he wouldn't make her mad. I'm so glad that kind of thing doesn't happen here.

Another really strong positive trait that I think the mods here share is fairness. I already mentioned personal things not getting in the way, so I won't beat that dead horse - I mean fairness in the sense no one gets special treatment. No one is singled out when they shouldn't be, in two senses: the sense that no one gets away with anything when they shouldn't, and at the same time, no one's getting picked on for nitpicky things that would be overlooked for someone else.

And I think the tough-love approach that the mods practice is the best way of doing things. It works no matter what you throw at it, and I love the mods here for practicing it.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:00 pm

Ni-ban Neko wrote:I think one of the major strengths that all the mods here share is their ability not to let personal issues get in the way of their decision-making.

Another really strong positive trait that I think the mods here share is fairness. I already mentioned personal things not getting in the way, so I won't beat that dead horse - I mean fairness in the sense no one gets special treatment. No one is singled out when they shouldn't be, in two senses: the sense that no one gets away with anything when they shouldn't, and at the same time, no one's getting picked on for nitpicky things that would be overlooked for someone else.

I'm glad you pointed that out. Sometimes I'll spot some rule-breaking, and what that person has done will make me want to spit nails..or I may not like that person very much. So I KNOW that if I deal with it, I'll end up doing it unfairly. So I'll IM Parakisu, or Dave, or Dan, or SOMEONE, and ask them to take care of it FOR me. That way, I don't end up making the wrong decision.

Rainbow · Post by **Rainbow** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:08 pm

I'm truly sorry, Tiff. I'm the one who's biased, really, I probably would see you as a savior if the one you were scolding was a Seiya fan who mentioned THAT all the time. Which is very unfair to all the Seiya fans (and haters) out there. I don't mean that it would be a good thing if you scolded Seiya fans, I mean that's a very big flaw of mine (and many people's, anime fans or not) to be more leinient with people who hold views similar to mine.

The real test would be testing me with an obnoxious Taiki/Chibi-Usa fan on my own forum!

And I also apologize to Sailorasteroid, if that's your opinion that opinions can be wrong, that's fine.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:36 pm

Rainbow wrote:And I also apologize to Sailorasteroid, if that's your opinion that opinions can be wrong, that's fine.

No apology necessary; you caused no offense. But let me proceed to support that particular opinion. If someone says, for example, "Sailormoon would have been so much better if Ami and Minako had died permanently in episode 45," they might well believe it, but it's still not true. Ami and Minako play key roles in the rest of the series. It would be very difficult to support that opinion with facts or reasoning. It would be very easy to support the opposite opinion with facts and reasoning.

Two caveats: 1: It is possible to have two opinions equally valid and equally supportable. E. g. Usagi should be with Mamoru/Usagi should be with Seiya. Both premises can be supported, and new facts and syllogisms are invented all the time to support them. Neither of those opinions can be called wrong. 2: The base preferences of a single person are virtually inviolate. To say, "I would have liked it better if Ami and Minako died," is an inassailable position, if an odd one.

Tempest · Post by **Tempest** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:57 pm

Tiff wrote: It's funny. i'm not the only one who got onto Sailor Moon, but yet I'm the only one you managed to come up with some hairbrained theory for. Thanks. That felt good, it really did. Felt bloody fantastic.

>_> I told you. No matter how the other mods act, you're the one that gets singled out. It's exactly as I pointed out. I was more publically rude to Sailor Moon but no one had said a damned thing.
The majority reason she was constantly warned was not that she was a Usagi & Mamoru fan, but her repetitiveness and inablity to honor her public and "private" (discussions through PM) promises to get her bad habits under control.

This forum - Even if I wasn't a mod here, I uttery respect how Bob, Dan and Tiff run the joint. Yes, they are strict when they need to be, but read OTHER posts. They are kind, funny and above all respectful to the members. Their strictness, as well as the stern attitude by the other mods, is fair and unbiased. I've never seen them favor one person over the other.

Other forum(s) - Well there is only one other forum than this where I visit regularly (excluding mine because it's often inactive, save a few members). Other than personal experineces and beefs, there is little to no common traits that can be shared from forum to forum.
Most of my peeves have already been mentioned. Many of which were already presented by Akarui Kibuno . I have one beef above all and, eventhough it's been partially mentioned already, I'm just stating it again.
1] sTiCky CaPs, cutsii wurds and intrnt shrthnd. I know it's personal choice to write in these style, but I didn't spend all that time in school to condense words into 3 letters, or butcher the language I've devoted most of my life to learn.

I'm not sure if that qualifies as a personal beef against this writing type or if it counts as a forum peeve.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:13 pm

Tempest wrote:
>_> I told you. No matter how the other mods act, you're the one that gets singled out. It's exactly as I pointed out. I was more publically rude to Sailor Moon but no one had said a damned thing.
The majority reason she was constantly warned was not that she was a Usagi & Mamoru fan, but her repetitiveness and inablity to honor her public and "private" (discussions through PM) promises to get her bad habits under control.

This forum - Even if I wasn't a mod here, I uttery respect how Bob, Dan and Tiff run the joint. Yes, they are strict when they need to be, but read OTHER posts. They are kind, funny and above all respectful to the members. Their strictness, as well as the stern attitude by the other mods, is fair and unbiased. I've never seen them favor one person over the other.

Yep. It's always Tiff. I have no idea why, but even before we had forums, it was always Tiff on SMU who got the worst emails, even as far as declarations of pure hatred and death threats.

And thank you, Tempest. People tend to only read the parts where we're reprimanding somebody, but never our regular, everyday posts.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:20 pm

Tiff

but even before we had forums, it was always Tiff on SMU who got the worst emails, even as far as declarations of pure hatred and death threats.

That's just sick. Death threats? It's not like you were running some anarchy site. I hope that you reported those threats. I'd be scared if I got something like that. I feel sorry for you Tiffu.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:28 pm

peachvampiress wrote:Tiff
but even before we had forums, it was always Tiff on SMU who got the worst emails, even as far as declarations of pure hatred and death threats.
That's just sick. Death threats? It's not like you were running some anarchy site. I hope that you reported those threats. I'd be scared if I got something like that. I feel sorry for you Tiffu.

You should have seen this completely misogynistic (woman-hating) email I got. He just went on and on, calling me bitch, slut, whore, etc...saying that the site was better off without me, leave it to dan and bob to run, somebody should shoot me, etc. I think at first I laughed, then cried, then laughed again.

Hell, i've even had people go as far as to build an Anti-Tiff site. I'm not joking. An actual, running, anti-tiff site.

peachvampiress · Post by **peachvampiress** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:08 pm

Tiff

Hell, i've even had people go as far as to build an Anti-Tiff site. I'm not joking. An actual, running, anti-tiff site.

0_____o x10. WTF??!! Wow, 'cause you know you're cool when...

Is it still running? No offence, but I'd like to see what it looks like (you know, research the habits of the illusive species known as idious dickheadus. Observe them in their natural habitat, see what prevents their heads from caving in since it's been proven they don't have a brain).

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:19 pm

peachvampiress wrote:
0_____o x10. WTF??!! Wow, 'cause you know you're cool when... Is it still running? No offence, but I'd like to see what it looks like (you know, research the habits of the illusive species known as idious dickheadus. Observe them in their natural habitat, see what prevents their heads from caving in since it's been proven they don't have a brain).

Nope. They've since taken it down after one of the authors and I had an exchange of words. Basically, it started when the main author, this chick, emailed me saying how rude I was. We emailed back and forth, and I politely asked her to stop emailing me. She resopnded that I was childish (Yes, becuase it's childish to say "Please, leave me alone."), so I blocked her email.

She then pasted ALL of our conversations, and they actually RATED and scored everything I said based on how mean it was. They did the same thing with my responses to opinions essays and in the guestbook. Basically, they left out anything remotely positive abuot me, and made me out to be this horrid bitch-monster.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:26 pm

Tiff wrote:Hell, i've even had people go as far as to build an Anti-Tiff site. I'm not joking. An actual, running, anti-tiff site.

Tiff wrote:Nope. They've since taken it down after one of the authors and I had an exchange of words. Basically, it started when the main author, this chick, emailed me saying how rude I was. We emailed back and forth, and I politely asked her to stop emailing me. She resopnded that I was childish (Yes, becuase it's childish to say "Please, leave me alone."), so I blocked her email.

She then pasted ALL of our conversations, and they actually RATED and scored everything I said based on how mean it was. They did the same thing with my responses to opinions essays and in the guestbook. Basically, they left out anything remotely positive abuot me, and made me out to be this horrid bitch-monster.

OMG, someone really has a sick mind. I can't believe someone would go that far to express their hate for someone. That's just sad.

EDIT: That's just insane. That is known as spreading hate propaganda and that's illegal. Sure it's a democracy in more places in the world and you're allowed to say what you want in those places, but what you're allowed to say is limited so that you don't hurt other people. That girl is lucky you didn't take that to the police.