New Editorial Posted

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:48 pm

I just wrote a brand spankin' new editorial. Go check it out in the editorials section. It's called "The Trouble with Whiners". Post comments (good and bad) here. Enjoy!

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:30 pm

OK, there seem to be two points in the editorial, one about update frequency, and one about site-user feedback, in forum and in e-mail. So I'll comment separately:

Now, I honestly haven't noticed to any negative degree the lack of updates. I mean heck, I'm busy too, it's all I can do to keep up here on the forums. Put bluntly, shit happens. It is a shame though that the websites out there that do constantly update are the ones run either for money or by large communities. Like the editorial says, the staff aren't the same at age 20-something as they were at age 15+. Understandable. But I'd like to see some webmasters who have 20-something resources and a 15+ mentality.

Further, while the staff, again understandably, doesn't want help or to give the site over to someone else, I do question to Bob or Dan or Tiff: what about the concept itself? I mean, if someone else wanted to start a site doing dub/original comparisons, hitting the ones you haven't, and/or taking a different focus (perhaps going line-by-line with the dialogue or taking a meaner tone), would you be more likely to say, "Oh, well, they're ripping us off. Just be patient and let us finish," or "This is a good companion site to ours"?

And another question: when all the comparisons through R are done, is there any other major SM-related task you want to take on? Or would you just call the site a completed work, and maybe just do more editorials or graphics or ancillary work?

Now as to the forum whiners, while I'm sympathetic to your annoyance and your actions, I'm hoping that you understand the mentality behind such folks. They come to the forums not knowing what they're going to get. And many first-time forumers don't have the experience in this kind of open-discourse situation.

Look, this is how I interact with my IRL friends: let's say, to take an example, we decide to go see a movie and we don't like it. OK, we all have generally the same mentality as friends so we're probably going to agree. And we're not going to come out and say, "Well, I didn't like it, but I guess everyone's different." We're going to say, "This movie sucked and should never have been made! The crew should be strung up by their toes, and people who liked it must have something wrong with them!" Obviously, here that would be verboten. But that's how a lot of people are used to speaking. And if we meet up with someone who disagrees, we're likely to not talk with them rather than have a discussion.

The editorial says, "The forums are a place for civil and intelligent discussion, not for nonsensical banter." Which is fine, only there's no place to go for nonsensical banter, and no way to identify the forums as not a place to do so. It's one thing to say that no one should be nonsensical, insulting, egotistical, or disagreeable on SMU's bandwidth. It's another to say that no one should be those at all, because that is moralizing, and that's what makes people think they are hated. Make clear that respect for site users includes rulebreakers, and I think that'd help.

And on a completely unrelated note, good luck on your mission and I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure I could never do such a thing.

RoastedTwinkies · Post by **RoastedTwinkies** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:02 pm

Thanks for posting that! I completely understand that we all have busy lives. Because the forums are active all the time, I didn't mind the lack of updates, that and I had my own things to worry about in my personal life. Things like school. I'm only into my second month of college, and I'm already feeling the pressures from it with midterms and everything. I no longer have the free time I used to have this previous school year.

Edit a few minutes later: As far as comparisions go, do you plan to get into what's been cut/changed in the opening and closing sequences?

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:26 pm

Look, this is how I interact with my IRL friends: let's say, to take an example, we decide to go see a movie and we don't like it. OK, we all have generally the same mentality as friends so we're probably going to agree. And we're not going to come out and say, "Well, I didn't like it, but I guess everyone's different." We're going to say, "This movie sucked and should never have been made! The crew should be strung up by their toes, and people who liked it must have something wrong with them!" Obviously, here that would be verboten. But that's how a lot of people are used to speaking. And if we meet up with someone who disagrees, we're likely to not talk with them rather than have a discussion.

But there's a difference between a conversation between friends where, as you said, people most likely agree with eachother. However, on a public forum, where it's more than likely that everyone is not going to agree, tact and courtesy are things that should be employed. Also, if you're comparing this to an offline-scenario, shouldn't you follow your own standard? You say that you're likely not to speak with someone who disagrees, yet if there's a topic on the boards where you don't agree, you join the discussion, as is intended. But you can't say that it should be just like "real-life" and then say that you do things online that you wouldn't offline.

As for the editorial itself, I must say kudos. Frankly, I've never understood people's need to write in and complain about things like "updates" and such. In my opinion, I'm getting a free service out of the someone else's generosity. I have no right to complain.

Finally, on the forum-issue. I won't lie when I say that I'm biased as a chibi-mod, but Bob hit the nail on the head. When we reprimand someone, we don't hate them. In fact, most reprimands have a very flat, bland tone to them. If we really hated someone, I think they would go more like "Read the rules, fuckass" rather than "There is already a topic on ______. Topic merged." And nobody is perfect. I've made just as many forum-mistakes here as others, and I was reprimanded just as many times. But I learned from those, and now I'm one of the mods.

Sailorasteroid · Post by **Sailorasteroid** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:08 pm

ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:But there's a difference between a conversation between friends where, as you said, people most likely agree with eachother. However, on a public forum, where it's more than likely that everyone is not going to agree, tact and courtesy are things that should be employed. Also, if you're comparing this to an offline-scenario, shouldn't you follow your own standard? You say that you're likely not to speak with someone who disagrees, yet if there's a topic on the boards where you don't agree, you join the discussion, as is intended. But you can't say that it should be just like "real-life" and then say that you do things online that you wouldn't offline.

Sorry, I guess I was unclear. Online forums of strangers shouldn't be conducted like IRL friends' conversations. But people used to the latter are going to be surprised by the former. Yes, here, if someone disagrees, you speak and be civil. Among friends, you keep silent or you razz them back. And there are no rules or moderators. So when a newbie comes along there can be a kind of culture shock and a percieved animosity from someone telling them the rules. And I think that perception should be accounted for when someone says that they are hated.

ParaKiss_Groupie · Post by **ParaKiss_Groupie** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:19 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:
ParaKiss_Groupie wrote:But there's a difference between a conversation between friends where, as you said, people most likely agree with eachother. However, on a public forum, where it's more than likely that everyone is not going to agree, tact and courtesy are things that should be employed. Also, if you're comparing this to an offline-scenario, shouldn't you follow your own standard? You say that you're likely not to speak with someone who disagrees, yet if there's a topic on the boards where you don't agree, you join the discussion, as is intended. But you can't say that it should be just like "real-life" and then say that you do things online that you wouldn't offline.
Sorry, I guess I was unclear. Online forums of strangers shouldn't be conducted like IRL friends' conversations. But people used to the latter are going to be surprised by the former. Yes, here, if someone disagrees, you speak and be civil. Among friends, you keep silent or you razz them back. And there are no rules or moderators. So when a newbie comes along there can be a kind of culture shock and a percieved animosity from someone telling them the rules. And I think that perception should be accounted for when someone says that they are hated.

I agree with that, but it is taken into account. That's one of the reasons why editorials like that include that topic. We are trying to stress that just because someone makes a mistake, we don't hate them.

Post by **Tiff** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:45 pm

Great job, Bob. Excellently written, and I couldn't agree more.

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:59 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote: Further, while the staff, again understandably, doesn't want help or to give the site over to someone else, I do question to Bob or Dan or Tiff: what about the concept itself? I mean, if someone else wanted to start a site doing dub/original comparisons, hitting the ones you haven't, and/or taking a different focus (perhaps going line-by-line with the dialogue or taking a meaner tone), would you be more likely to say, "Oh, well, they're ripping us off. Just be patient and let us finish," or "This is a good companion site to ours"?

I can only speak for myself and not for Dan or Tiff, but if someone else came along and made their own Sailor Moon Uncensored, that's totally up to them. I personally wouldn't stop them. Depending on the content, I might be annoyed, or I might think that it was a great companion site to ours. If they made a SMU with the intent of "We can do better than they did", then I might be annoyed, but if they went on a total different aspect and hit on things we didn't, then I might enjoy the site and reccomend it to others. Also, like I said in the editorial, depending on how nice the site was put together (layout, images, quality of content) would affect my opinion as well.

And another question: when all the comparisons through R are done, is there any other major SM-related task you want to take on? Or would you just call the site a completed work, and maybe just do more editorials or graphics or ancillary work?

You know, I've never personally thought about it myself. It always seemed like something so far off in the distance that it wasn't something I really thought about. Now with the concept of finishing the comparisons in the very near future, this is something I should think about. I know Dan has thought about stuff like this a lot more than I have, so maybe he has some thoughts on the subject.

Personally, I wouldn't be that upset with calling SMU a "completed work" (at least until stars comes out), but at the same time, I don't think I would ever let this place just stagnate. I'd probably always want to add little things here and there.

*snip stuff about forum whiners commentary*

Basically, my main point was to address the issue of the criticsm from other sites. The forum thing was a secondary idea that seemed to fit in well with the general flow of the editorial.

My main point of that section of the editorial was (as parakiss said) to let the forum body as a whole (particularly new members) know that we WILL reprimand you. LOL. It's going to happen, we have lots of rules to follow, but really the underlying message was just because you get reprimanded doesn't mean you can't be a valuable asset to the board.

And on a completely unrelated note, good luck on your mission and I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure I could never do such a thing.

Hey thanks, but that's not something that'll happen for a while (if it ends up happening at all), so lets not worry about it right now =P

Akarui Kibuno · Post by **Akarui Kibuno** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:37 am

I would say "Perfectly written". I mean, your views are rather "logical".

Constructive criticism is always good when coming from a "confirmed source". I mean, if I started a website and you came and told me what to change, I would change it. If SOS came, I'd kick their butts (they seem to be gone now anyway but still, you get the point). There are plenty of good sites out there kinda "qualified" to give advice, when they don't always do because they are humble. So the bad sites take over, and they give advice, which is of course the ironical way of saying "they insult your work".

The classical saying would be "Don't listen to them", of course, but when they go on and on ranting about your site, I really imagine how annoyed you can feel.

As for the forums part, well, I'm sure I made mistakes here too, and I tried to learn how to change them. I understand the "It's not because you're new that we hate you" and it's even "We don't hate you, it's simple. Please read the rules and try to follow them, ask questions if needed". I guess you don't hate questions, you just like people who understand what you are trying to explain. Which is normal o.O;;;

Whiners have always existed and unfortunately always will. These ones who complain about your site, well, post your editorial everywhere you can and then let them be. After all, you know why things are for yourself, so of course you don't need to bother about nasty sites trying to impress you. Add to that the fact that they are probably jealous and want you to hurry just to be able to copy the whole site and voilà, you know what to do.

Long live SMU even is SMU doesn't update often! I don't care! SMU is alive, there is a forum, we know you three do things, and life is GOOD! It would be bad if you updated often and had no life

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:16 am

The really funny thing about the specific site that inspired the editorial....They complained about us not updating.........yet they'd been open over 1 1/2 years and they only had 13 comparisons posted. Compared to our 95+. Not to mention the movie comparisons.

I just thought that was really funny.

Jumbled Thoughts · Post by **MarioKnight** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:14 pm

Yes, very well written. I agree with the whole thing completely, and I can say that I haven't really gotten any mails whining about the site that I can recall at least. I hope a lot of people read that and can see things through our eyes and understand what we do outside of the site.

Cardcaptor Takato · Post by **Cardcaptor Takato** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:34 am

It's one thing to be concerned about site updates and another thing to be whining about it. Like, if someone was e-mailing me about updating something of mine, I wouldn't mind it if they asked politely if the site is still being updated and maybe even offer to help with something, but if they were to start whining about how much I suck for not updating, I would definetly be pissed about that. One thing I definetly can't stand is when a newbie breaks the rules and one of the mods alerts them about it. They'll start whining about how mean they were and say that because they're newbies they shouldn't be treated so "harshly" even though the rules were made FOR the newbies. >< I think it's important to have a forum like this where the rules are actually enforced, so that we don't have another Sailormoon.com. That site has abosuletly zero moderation and is a complete mess (not to mention a nightmare), so I'm glad we have an organized site like this.

I understand you guys are busy with your own personal lives so you can't always update the site. I thank you for at least taking what little time out of your lives that you could to work together to build a site like this to begin with. I barely understand anything about HTML or stuff like that, so I envy you guys for creating such a great site. I don't understand why someone who can't wait for more episode comparisions to be posted can't just go out and buy the Sailor Moon DVDs and do it themselves, especially when the uncut version of Sailor Moon is now widely avaivable in the English-speaking market. I appreciate and thank you guys so much for all the hard work you've done and I look forward to any upcoming updates at all no matter how far into the future they are. I won't pester you guys about hurrying up with the updates, but I will be waiting for them. That was a very good and insightful article, which I think everyone should keep in mind when they visit any website, and I wish you good luck with your mission, Animeguro.

usachan · Post by **usachan** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:41 pm

I just want to add being 16 myself, with MY schedule it's hard sometimes just to check the forums to post stuff on certain weeks. So I totally understand it must be tough to run a whole site when you're in college and working.

Sailor Ganymede · Post by **Sailor Ganymede** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:05 am

I read this editorial twice.. i know this post is a little late.. but i understand.

you guys have so much more on your plates, you don't need other sites pulling you down

*she offers a hug to them*

you'll always be a good site in my heart..

Post by **AnimeGuru0** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:25 pm

*accepts hug* =)

And yeah, that's really all that matters. If one person enjoys the work that we do, then that makes it all worth it. Thanks for compliments everyone

Stephen Victor · Post by **Stephen Victor** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:36 pm

AnimeGuru0 wrote:*accepts hug* =)

And yeah, that's really all that matters. If one person enjoys the work that we do, then that makes it all worth it. Thanks for compliments everyone

I agree with all the compliments. I think that SMU is a very good site and the comparisions and editorals are often very interesting reads and well-written.