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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:47 pm

Well didnt ya know "Diversity" only goes for whats not considered evil to others. Who cares if Johnny has two daddies or two mommies because they dont count when it comes to good ole american diversity teaching..And unfortuanetly you cant even say leave it up to the parents to teach a child about homosexuality because it is like CardCaptor said alot of parents try to hide that its out there and its ashame.

To me it goes back to the one aspect of homosexuality that people focus on. No dont consider that it is a "Relationship" between two people of the same sex combined with an attraction for said persons. Let us focus on the private aspects instead because we all know how sex is evil. (Darn that ole sodomy, funny though straight couples do it too). Then you pair that with individual homophobic tendencies or even denial of some peoples own homoerotic pulls its just another fire keg of overly defensive people who are afraid that "gays will take over the world." </sarcasm>

Seriously though its a shame that still in this day and age people arent more open to the world around them, that they can still shun people because of who they love makes me sad. Because to me thats the core of homosexuality, who you fall in love with, choose to have not only a physical but deep spiritual and loving relationship with. Too many people focus on the sexual aspect of it and thats ashame. And trust me I know alot more straight people who do dirtier things in bed and there the ones who creep me out 0.0
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Post by supersailorearth » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:14 pm

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html
I have to take the Christian side of this. I will not be sorry for my opinion (and truth) that homosexuality is wrong. It is ok to love and care for another person of the same sex but any right reserved for husband and wife is strictly off limits (marriage and sex to name the big ones). The article above has bible references which contain the highlights on God's view. (also if any devil's advocate is played here it really will be the devil's advocate). I have nothing against homosexual people. I think that the article above phrases it really well : We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle. Honestly I really doubt that the people who claim to be homosexual are really happy. Take Rosie O'Donnell for example. Before her marriage to her "partner" she was always happy on her shows. Now she seems to have become extremely angry towards everyoe and has taken a negative point of view on everything.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:34 pm

So your trying to say being Gay can change a happy person to an angry person? Wow I know I was in a straight marriage for nearly ten years and I became angry due to unhappiness in it so I guess it works both ways then? I dont want to get into a religous knocking session and everyone is entitled to their feelings but to say that a Gay person is not happy being gay without cited references save Rosie O Donnel is kinda flimsy. There are plenty of gay people who live happy and productive lives and maybe their unhappiness stems from living in a world that treats them like garbage for sins that people who indulge in various acts of sex can also be judged under. If were going to cite gays as sinners because of a sexual act then I hope that article is targeted towards non gays who engage in that to, but we all know its not.

As for Marriage I stand by my argument. Especially since now adays people who throw up that its such a sacred ceremony hardly acknowledge the fact that people who actually can legally get married take advantage of this and use it as a revolving door to relationship problems. The divorce rates now adays make it not even worth going down the aisle anymore IMO, then to add to that the fact that you have to be prepared economic wise and emotional wise I still believe any two adults who really think they can handle such a proposal with each other should be allowed. I wont stoop to saying marriage is a joke, some people out there still try to strive to have long lasting long term relationships, but to me now adays many see marriage as a way not to be alone.

I think of it this way people who argue that marriage is just a sacred ceremony under god fail to see that it has legal aspects to it as well. You sign a contract stating you and your husband or wife are in a partnership. And when said partnership fails to work the contract can be terminated by a judge. Sounds really sacred dont it?

Sorry if I come across as sarcastic I just really cannot stand some arguements against gay marriage, fine if you dont want them to have a religious ceremony im sure many wouldnt balk. But I see no valid reason why two adults cannot get a civil ceremony ie contract so that they are allowed the same legal rights as spouses. If I were gay and needed my partner to care for me if ill or my child or do the things a spouse normally does I think its only fair that they should. If your sharing a life with someone why should it matter if they are the same sex? I could go on but I wont I still am in favor for a legal way for same sex couples to share the rights of married couples even if it does not have the same tones as marriage.
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Post by Neon Heart » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:39 pm

supersailorearth wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html
I have to take the Christian side of this. I will not be sorry for my opinion (and truth) that homosexuality is wrong. It is ok to love and care for another person of the same sex but any right reserved for husband and wife is strictly off limits (marriage and sex to name the big ones). The article above has bible references which contain the highlights on God's view. (also if any devil's advocate is played here it really will be the devil's advocate). I have nothing against homosexual people. I think that the article above phrases it really well : We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle. Honestly I really doubt that the people who claim to be homosexual are really happy. Take Rosie O'Donnell for example. Before her marriage to her "partner" she was always happy on her shows. Now she seems to have become extremely angry towards everyoe and has taken a negative point of view on everything.
Never mind the fact that O' Donnell was abused as a child, and that her mother died when Rosie was very young. I highly doubt homosexuality has ANYTHING to do with why she's become bitter toward others. Some people who were abused earlier in life have a tendency to be bitter later on.

I know when my mom was married, she was very miserable. She was in a STRAIGHT marriage. And she was unhappy because her husband was unfaithful, never paid attention to her, and, get this, asked HER for a divorce because HE was seeing another woman! I've seen same sex partners with a more stable relationship that that!

So basically, what else you're saying is, it's wrong to let homosexual people be human, and marry? You're saying that by being homosexual or bisexual, we can't be happy? I'm bisexual, I have my down days, but I have more ups than I do downs. So why don't you just say that homosexuals and bisexuals aren't human next time, because that's basically what you've just told us.

And you know what else? Some people don't read the bible, nor do they follow what God "thinks". NONE of us know what God is "thinking". We have free will for a reason. He let's us do whatever we want. And if being in a same sex relationship is what we want, then let it be what we want. We'll never know what he is "thinking" until the day we either day, or comes back to take us all back, like some religious prophets have said.

I really don't understand these religious people who are against homosexuality in general. Love thy neighbor, don't judge lest ye be judged... I guess that only applies to straight people now? I've always thought God wanted us to be HAPPY...

Sure, some people who are homosexual aren't happy. Usually their orientation has little, if NOTHING, to do with it. But what about the straight people? Are they unhappy just because they're straight? It's so strange to me how some people forget that certain people can be born with mental disorders that can make them unhappy. With a straight person, the religious people NEVER jump on them for anything, unless they've commited a hate crime or murder. But with homosexuals? Nooo, they forget all they know, and immediately penn their orientation as THE source of their problems.

Orientation DOES NOT have anything to do with 99.9% of lifes problems. If this was the case, homosexuals SURELY would have ALL self destructed by now. And have they? Absolutely not, because they can lead just as normal of a life as a straight person, just as happy and fruitful. Because they're HUMAN. Just like everyone else in this world. And by god, their orientation is NOT. I repeat. NOT. A mistake.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:53 pm

Neon Heart wrote:
supersailorearth wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html
I have to take the Christian side of this. I will not be sorry for my opinion (and truth) that homosexuality is wrong. It is ok to love and care for another person of the same sex but any right reserved for husband and wife is strictly off limits (marriage and sex to name the big ones). The article above has bible references which contain the highlights on God's view. (also if any devil's advocate is played here it really will be the devil's advocate). I have nothing against homosexual people. I think that the article above phrases it really well : We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle. Honestly I really doubt that the people who claim to be homosexual are really happy. Take Rosie O'Donnell for example. Before her marriage to her "partner" she was always happy on her shows. Now she seems to have become extremely angry towards everyoe and has taken a negative point of view on everything.
Never mind the fact that O' Donnell was abused as a child, and that her mother died when Rosie was very young. I highly doubt homosexuality has ANYTHING to do with why she's become bitter toward others. Some people who were abused earlier in life have a tendency to be bitter later on.

I know when my mom was married, she was very miserable. She was in a STRAIGHT marriage. And she was unhappy because her husband was unfaithful, never paid attention to her, and, get this, asked HER for a divorce because HE was seeing another woman! I've seen same sex partners with a more stable relationship that that!

So basically, what else you're saying is, it's wrong to let homosexual people be human, and marry? You're saying that by being homosexual or bisexual, we can't be happy? I'm bisexual, I have my down days, but I have more ups than I do downs. So why don't you just say that homosexuals and bisexuals aren't human next time, because that's basically what you've just told us.

And you know what else? Some people don't read the bible, nor do they follow what God "thinks". NONE of us know what God is "thinking". We have free will for a reason. He let's us do whatever we want. And if being in a same sex relationship is what we want, then let it be what we want. We'll never know what he is "thinking" until the day we either day, or comes back to take us all back, like some religious prophets have said.

I really don't understand these religious people who are against homosexuality in general. Love thy neighbor, don't judge lest ye be judged... I guess that only applies to straight people now? I've always thought God wanted us to be HAPPY...

Sure, some people who are homosexual aren't happy. Usually their orientation has little, if NOTHING, to do with it. But what about the straight people? Are they unhappy just because they're straight? It's so strange to me how some people forget that certain people can be born with mental disorders that can make them unhappy. With a straight person, the religious people NEVER jump on them for anything, unless they've commited a hate crime or murder. But with homosexuals? Nooo, they forget all they know, and immediately penn their orientation as THE source of their problems.

Orientation DOES NOT have anything to do with 99.9% of lifes problems. If this was the case, homosexuals SURELY would have ALL self destructed by now. And have they? Absolutely not, because they can lead just as normal of a life as a straight person, just as happy and fruitful. Because they're HUMAN. Just like everyone else in this world. And by god, their orientation is NOT. I repeat. NOT. A mistake.
Neon I think that was one of the best statements ive read on this topic. It was heartfelt and intelligent, people fail to understand the human aspect of homosexuality, and I agree straight people have issues to we can all be monsters at times and our sexual preferences should not dictate who we are as people in general. To say that Gay people are unhappy, or that they are evil bugs me because they are focusing on one minute aspect of their lives as compared to a whole. I know plenty of gay people who are as what society calls "normal" can be they dont go around touting their preferences but if they did it would not matter because they are still good people.

As for another straight reference I'll throw myself in the mix again. I have both an emotional and a mental disorder, there are times i seem very up then very down. I am attracted to the opposite sex, but you will not see me maligned for having my disorder. But if I were a lesbian who is bipolar and schizophrenic then it would be because I love a woman that I have these problems? Yeah that makes a whole lot of sense there...</sarcasm>
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Post by Jeff » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:24 pm

ohu
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:53 pm

Jeff wrote: For your perusal, here is the link to an article that delineates the view of many gay and pro-gay Christians.
That was very inciteful reading, I like how he broke down the arguments to give credit to both sides, and I am even more sure after reading that that commited relationships between two adults should be respected no matter what their sexual orientation is. The whole loop hole of incest and animalism asside you dont see many people petitioning for those things anyway. And I dont see how allowing two people of the same sex marital rights could lead to other acts of marriage if the law for it is written properly. Seriously all the arguments ive seen against legalizing Gay Unions is weak and almost always goes back to a religious argument.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Jeff » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:59 pm

uyguy
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Post by jupiter23 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:19 pm

supersailorearth wrote:I have to take the Christian side of this. I will not be sorry for my opinion (and truth) that homosexuality is wrong. It is ok to love and care for another person of the same sex but any right reserved for husband and wife is strictly off limits (marriage and sex to name the big ones). The article above has bible references which contain the highlights on God's view. (also if any devil's advocate is played here it really will be the devil's advocate). I have nothing against homosexual people. I think that the article above phrases it really well : We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle. Honestly I really doubt that the people who claim to be homosexual are really happy. Take Rosie O'Donnell for example. Before her marriage to her "partner" she was always happy on her shows. Now she seems to have become extremely angry towards everyoe and has taken a negative point of view on everything.
I apologize if I sound condescending when I say this, but who are you (or any of us for that matter) to think that you have the right to tell people who is allowed to be happy and who isn't? The Bible is not always correct when it comes to telling people how they should or should not live their lives. I think that the Gods want us to be happy in life, and whether we're homosexual or heterosexual shouldn't (and doesn't) matter to Them at all. I think Jeff-san pretty much summed it up with his comments about the "Christian Side." I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else who they can or cannot marry, and like Jeff also said, the bans on gay marriage won't last. Society's way of thinking is in fact changing, whether it's visible to everyone yet or not.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:09 pm

Yes and in the link he posted the writer clearly states instances in that. Slavery which was something in the old days is no longer an issue, nor is political uprisings against tyranny. Interiacial love and relationships as well as the choice of being circumsized or not. Things change with the wind and it should be up to us as individuals what path our lives should take. And to punish someone for who they choose to Love will always be wrong to me. To me to call someone evil because their ideal of love is not the same as yours or because of obscure references in a religious tome should be a sin.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Jeff » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:12 pm

lhl
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Post by Starscream » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:44 am

You know what? As a Christian, I WILL play Devil's advocate (though I do take offense at your implications, supersailorearth; Jesus played "devil's advocate" plenty of times, yet that did not make him demonic in any form)

What every fundamentalist or literal interpreting Christian needs to understand is that the Bible is God-inspired, not God-written. It's a book scripted by many people over many, many years, with most of the man-made comments and edicts (i.e., those made by the humans in the books such as the Apostles) tailored to the society AT THAT TIME. Take the Book of Revelations: is it really about the end of the world? No, it was written at a time when Christian persecution was at a disturbing high, and new converts needed solace in the fact that the Romans were the least of their worries; that, at the end of all things, those true to the faith would be saved. To say that all of the Bible is God's view is very, very wrong; it's God's view as interpreted by the imperfection of humanity's lenses. Did Jesus himself not say "one cannot know the Father but through me"? Thus, how is it that Peter, Paul, the writers of the Old Testament, etc., are able to speak "directly" to God? They can't; they took Jesus' teachings and the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and put them in the context of their society. They're not God's words; they're human ones.
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Post by Cardcaptor Takato » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:50 am

supersailorearth wrote:The article above has bible references which contain the highlights on God's view. (also if any devil's advocate is played here it really will be the devil's advocate).
I love how you say it's ok for us to think differently from you but then you turn around and automatically judge everyone that "play's devil's advocate" is a devil. So much for judge not lest ye be judged. What I find really hypocritical about this debate over banning gay marriage in the name of religion is that the bible says that divorce is a sin too and since you posted biblical scripture in your defense, I will too, 1st Corinthians 7:10-11 and Romans 7:2-3. Yet despite the bible clearly banning divorce, the government legalizes it anyway and unlike gay marriage, divorce can actually affect other people and hurt them and make them unhappy. I'm not trying to condemn people that get divorces or say that the government should ban divorce as I could care less about the bible but if the bible bans divorce yet the government legalizes it, does that mean that you are condoning their "sinful lifestyle?" I think it's really hypocritical for the government to ban one marriage lifestyle in the name of religion yet allow another that the bible says is just as "sinful." The truth is the government really doesn't care about protecting the so-called sanctity of marriage in the name of religion. They're just picking and choosing what scriptures from the bible they want to believe to promote their own selfish agendas while ignoring everything else God says about marriage. Besides, isn't there supposed to be a separation of church and state anyway?
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:59 am

Starscream wrote:You know what? As a Christian, I WILL play Devil's advocate (though I do take offense at your implications, supersailorearth; Jesus played "devil's advocate" plenty of times, yet that did not make him demonic in any form)

What every fundamentalist or literal interpreting Christian needs to understand is that the Bible is God-inspired, not God-written. It's a book scripted by many people over many, many years, with most of the man-made comments and edicts (i.e., those made by the humans in the books such as the Apostles) tailored to the society AT THAT TIME. Take the Book of Revelations: is it really about the end of the world? No, it was written at a time when Christian persecution was at a disturbing high, and new converts needed solace in the fact that the Romans were the least of their worries; that, at the end of all things, those true to the faith would be saved. To say that all of the Bible is God's view is very, very wrong; it's God's view as interpreted by the imperfection of humanity's lenses. Did Jesus himself not say "one cannot know the Father but through me"? Thus, how is it that Peter, Paul, the writers of the Old Testament, etc., are able to speak "directly" to God? They can't; they took Jesus' teachings and the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and put them in the context of their society. They're not God's words; they're human ones.
Thats exactly what the author of the link Jeff posted was trying to convey to. I do not like knocking the bible or other religious beliefs because I know personally how that feels and its not a good feeling to hear your own spiritual beliefs are wrong. But I cannot stand when people call others "evil" for something that stems from love. I cannot see how loving someone (and not sex) but actually loving someone and wanting to commit your life to them is evil and I dont think there is an argument that could sway me from feeling that way. I do not think its wrong for two responsible adults who want to share a life together wanting to comit legally to each other.

Which takes me to my next point one I had made earlier;
I love how you say it's ok for us to think differently from you but then you turn around and automatically judge everyone that "play's devil's advocate" is a devil. So much for judge not lest ye be judged. What I find really hypocritical about this debate over banning gay marriage in the name of religion is that the bible says that divorce is a sin too and since you posted biblical scripture in your defense, I will too, 1st Corinthians 7:10-11 and Romans 7:2-3. Yet despite the bible clearly banning divorce, the government legalizes it anyway and unlike gay marriage, divorce can actually affect other people and hurt them and make them unhappy. I'm not trying to condemn people that get divorces or say that the government should ban divorce as I could care less about the bible but if the bible bans divorce yet the government legalizes it, does that mean that you are condoning their "sinful lifestyle?" I think it's really hypocritical for the government to ban one marriage lifestyle in the name of religion yet allow another that the bible says is just as "sinful." The truth is the government really doesn't care about protecting the so-called sanctity of marriage in the name of religion. They're just picking and choosing what scriptures from the bible they want to believe to promote their own selfish agendas while ignoring everything else God says about marriage. Besides, isn't there supposed to be a separation of church and state anyway?
People always got back to the arguement of marriage being a sacred act under god, when clearly now adays it is more of a legal contract between two persons allowing them certain rights within a relationship. Ie, the co ownership of properties, guardianship of children and or spouse if they fall ill and need a legal representative to handle such things as removing a feeding tube or allowing them to stay on life support. Marriage is not as simple as pledging your love before god even if that is a nice way of doing so. And marriage is not some fantasy magical event that automatically makes everything grand and great. It takes alot of work and effort and if two persons really wish to make such a commitment to each other, their sexual backround and orientation should not come into the mix. Why is it that its not evil to take taxes from Gay men and women, allow them to purchase property and basically live to the same standards as straight people except to deny them something everyone else is allowed?

It kinda reminds me of the old story of the "red headed step child" people see gays as "yeah their there" but they arent as good as the perfect straight kids. So yeah we'll allow them some rights but because their so evil lets not allow them to enjoy love in the same way straights do. It just isnt fair and the arguments to say it is make no sense cause several people in this topic have intelligently put how the same very arguments can apply to other aspects of marriage to. If were going to keep the antiquated notion that gays cannot marry then we should abolish divorce and if thats the case if it gets to that (I know it wont) but if it does then im so glad I got mine finalized already. Its really time to stop being hypocritical and stop picking and choosing laws based on morals. Specialy given those who are basing their arguments on morals can be some of the ones who are secretly corupt.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Starscream » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:07 pm

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:I do not like knocking the bible or other religious beliefs because I know personally how that feels and its not a good feeling to hear your own spiritual beliefs are wrong.
Believe me, that is not my intention ^^;
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Post by Akarui Kibuno » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:21 pm

Senshi_of_Vision wrote: Sorry if I come across as sarcastic I just really cannot stand some arguements against gay marriage, fine if you dont want them to have a religious ceremony im sure many wouldnt balk. But I see no valid reason why two adults cannot get a civil ceremony ie contract so that they are allowed the same legal rights as spouses. If I were gay and needed my partner to care for me if ill or my child or do the things a spouse normally does I think its only fair that they should. If your sharing a life with someone why should it matter if they are the same sex? I could go on but I wont I still am in favor for a legal way for same sex couples to share the rights of married couples even if it does not have the same tones as marriage.
I LOVED that part. I totally agree with you.

A few days ago I had that discussion again with someone. Yup : let "them" (because I'm not one) marry, whichever way they do! If religion doesn't let them, so be it. Why sould law do the same thing ? o.O
My LJ :)
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Cardcaptor Takato
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Post by Cardcaptor Takato » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:30 pm

On a lighter note, this is the greatest gay themed music video everz: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQUWIw4CVcM
"If we can''t comprehend the plan at hand, how could a higher plan make any more sense? I'd say you can only be a martyr if you know what you are dying for, and choose it"-Elphaba

"Those who made mistakes blame themselves and close their hearts. It's impossible to fix a mistake. Man can't return to the past. That's why we drink. Drunks, lushes, sliding alcohol down their throats to dilute the memories that can't be denied.-Vash The Stampede"

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Senshi_of_Vision
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:23 pm

Starscream wrote:
Senshi_of_Vision wrote:I do not like knocking the bible or other religious beliefs because I know personally how that feels and its not a good feeling to hear your own spiritual beliefs are wrong.
Believe me, that is not my intention ^^;
Ahh that wasnt aimed at you it was more of me saying that I wont say SailorEarth is wrong for her feelings even though I didnt like her comment. I was using your quote to agree with you and it reminded me alot of what the guy from the article I read yesterday said. The bible should only be used as an interpertive guide to now aday life and not to be taken so literal. You made a very good arguement and I hope that SailorEarth didnt take my comments as an attack on his/her views (sorry not sure if its a girl or guy at this point).
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

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Cardcaptor Takato
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Post by Cardcaptor Takato » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:06 pm

Happy National Coming Out Day, everyone! Has anyone done anything to celebrate LGBT pride on today? I wish I could join in any festivities but unfortunately I'm still in the closest but at least I can have the Internet to be open about my sexuality to. For more info about today, see the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coming_Out_Day
"If we can''t comprehend the plan at hand, how could a higher plan make any more sense? I'd say you can only be a martyr if you know what you are dying for, and choose it"-Elphaba

"Those who made mistakes blame themselves and close their hearts. It's impossible to fix a mistake. Man can't return to the past. That's why we drink. Drunks, lushes, sliding alcohol down their throats to dilute the memories that can't be denied.-Vash The Stampede"

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Post by Jeff » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:34 am

gjhg
Last edited by Jeff on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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