Is this an epidemic?

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Is this an epidemic?

Post by Tiff » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:07 pm

I've been seeing too many stories lately (and by lately, I mean the last few years) about parents deliberately harming/killing their children.

Is this some sort of sick mental epidemic that's going around? What is with all of the parents doing these things to their children?

An example? "Baby Grace" was found in Galveston, having been beaten, tortured, and killed by her mother and stepfather. They put her in a storage box, then threw her body out.

That's just one of the many things I've seen going on. I can't even imagine doing something like that to my child, let alone to anybody else, really.

Any ideas as to why there are so many cases like this? Is there something going on int he minds of these parents, to cause them to harm their children in such a manner?

Feel free to discuss theories and opinions.

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Post by jupiter23 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:20 pm

I don't think it's so much of an epidemic as it is the media over-reporting on stories like this. The number of parents-killing-their-children murders may actually not be as high as what the news makes it look like. Yes, it is a very sad thing that it happens at all, but I hesitate to say that I believe it's an epidemic.
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Post by Tiff » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:30 pm

jupiter23 wrote:I don't think it's so much of an epidemic as it is the media over-reporting on stories like this. The number of parents-killing-their-children murders may actually not be as high as what the news makes it look like. Yes, it is a very sad thing that it happens at all, but I hesitate to say that I believe it's an epidemic.
=P I used the term epidemic very loosely and sarcastically. Sorry if that wasn't made clear. It isn't like I believe a real virus is digging into the brains of mothers and making them drown their kids.

My main point for this topic is to discuss how anybody could kill/hurt/deliberately harm their child, regardless of how much it actually happens, ranging from abuse to torture to murder.. I'm not really looking for "here are the statistics of how often it happens" here.

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Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:38 pm

I think what it is, is that its just being reported more now then before.

Its actually more common then people think unfortunatly. Things like post partum depression and munchausen biproxy are the cause usually. Sometimes they are caused by the hormones and other stuff released during pregnancy.

I dont know if its just a flaw in our biology or what but its always been with us as a species.
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Post by Tiff » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 pm

Sailormars Obsessed fan wrote:I think what it is, is that its just being reported more now then before.

Its actually more common then people think unfortunatly. Things like post partum depression and munchausen biproxy are the cause usually. Sometimes they are caused by the hormones and other stuff released during pregnancy.

I dont know if its just a flaw in our biology or what but its always been with us as a species.
What about those women who aren't going through post partum? What about the many men who commit these crimes?

Yes, post partum can cause this, but that isn't always the case. Any theories as to why other people just randomly snap and do this shit?

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Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
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Post by jupiter23 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:51 pm

Tiff wrote:=P I used the term epidemic very loosely and sarcastically. Sorry if that wasn't made clear. It isn't like I believe a real virus is digging into the brains of mothers and making them drown their kids.

My main point for this topic is to discuss how anybody could kill/hurt/deliberately harm their child, regardless of how much it actually happens, ranging from abuse to torture to murder.. I'm not really looking for "here are the statistics of how often it happens" here.
Oh, okay. I got it now. ^_^;

Genuine mental disorders aside, I don't think any really good explanation exists to explain why any parent could harm their own child. And what I mean by genuine mental disorders is a disorder that is pretty commonly known as far as mental disorders go (schizophrenia in one form or another would be an example of one), and the parent has been diagnosed with it and/or has a history of it in their family. In some cases, you could argue that the parent that murdered their kid had a mental disorder, but that wouldn't be able to explain why a step-parent would do it too (as in the Baby "Grace" case.)
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Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:52 pm

Tiff wrote:
Sailormars Obsessed fan wrote:I think what it is, is that its just being reported more now then before.

Its actually more common then people think unfortunatly. Things like post partum depression and munchausen biproxy are the cause usually. Sometimes they are caused by the hormones and other stuff released during pregnancy.

I dont know if its just a flaw in our biology or what but its always been with us as a species.
What about those women who aren't going through post partum? What about the many men who commit these crimes?

Yes, post partum can cause this, but that isn't always the case. Any theories as to why other people just randomly snap and do this shit?
well some people just dont have the same sense of right and wrong as we do. there are lots of possible reasons for this. really its a case by case thing. Were naturally an aggressive species, unfortunatly some people dont have the mental "failsafes" to keep that aggression in check.

I hope you dont think Im trying to defend someone who kills a child. Im of course horrified when it happens, and I think the person should be punished. However its worked into our biology. Child killing is not exactly unnatural, most animals do it. Even the cute ones. You introduce a new male cat to a group of females with kittens there is a good chance the male will kill the kittens. The difference humans have is our intelligence and our ability to override instinct. Some people dont have those overrides unfortunatly. We just gotta watchout for those people.

I dont think there is a perfect solution to this really.
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Post by Tiff » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:55 pm

Sailormars Obsessed fan wrote:
well some people just dont have the same sense of right and wrong as we do. there are lots of possible reasons for this. really its a case by case thing. Were naturally an aggressive species, unfortunatly some people dont have the mental "failsafes" to keep that aggression in check.
This is more the type of discussion I was looking for. ^^ I wanted to discuss the psychological and emotional side of this.
I hope you dont think Im trying to defend someone who kills a child. Im of course horrified when it happens, and I think the person should be punished. However its worked into our biology. Child killing is not exactly unnatural, most animals do it. Even the cute ones. You introduce a new male cat to a group of females with kittens there is a good chance the male will kill the kittens. The difference humans have is our intelligence and our ability to override instinct. Some people dont have those overrides unfortunatly. We just gotta watchout for those people.

I dont think there is a perfect solution to this really.
Oh, goodness no. I don't think you are at all. You're explaining why it happens, that's all, and that's what I wanted to discuss. Explanation isn't the same as defense.

The difference, however, is animals don't take joy from killing their young. They do it out of instinct, ie: kill the weak so the stronger survive. Animals, as far as I know, don't get some sort of sick power trip out of killing young...it's just something they do as part of their nature.

*shrugs* not looking for a perfect solution...that'd be a ridiculous thing to ask.

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Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:01 pm

Im Glad. I know how sensitive this subject is.

I did a lot of research on cat behavior in college and one thing in reguards to the male cat killing the kittens is that those kittens are not its offspring and therefore are natural rivals to that cat's "authority." As to the cat getting joy out of it who knows. we cant get into the cats head and see if its happy or not. Its possible it feels satisifyed in the knowledge that it will now be able to replace those kittens with its own, or that it struck a blow against other males in the area, but cant really prove that one way or the other.

The step fater might have felt this way on some deep subconsious level when it killed baby grace. as for the mother's help I cant really help you there. the mother cats will always defend their kittens from a rival male. if there is a biological link there I dont know what it is.

Again this isnt a defense of them. They should fully be punished for it.
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Post by peachvampiress » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:56 pm

I just read the story about baby grace. One thing I've noticed is that it seems in a lot of these stories a step parent is involved. It seems most of these cases aren't so much "Parent kills their own child" but "Adult kills their boy/girlfriends child". Taking these accounts into consideration, I'd have to say that it seems extreme selfishness is causing parents and step parents to murder children. A lot of single moms pick losers boyfriends without thinking if they're a good person to have around their kids. There more conserned about their needs then their children. I can't remember the names, but their was that case in the 90's about the mother who locked her two sons in her car and pushed it into a lake because her new boyfriend didn't want to be a father. Rather then find someone else to be with (like someone who didn't mind dating someone with kids) she killed her kids to be with him.
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Post by Tiff » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:24 am

peachvampiress wrote:I just read the story about baby grace. One thing I've noticed is that it seems in a lot of these stories a step parent is involved. It seems most of these cases aren't so much "Parent kills their own child" but "Adult kills their boy/girlfriends child". Taking these accounts into consideration, I'd have to say that it seems extreme selfishness is causing parents and step parents to murder children. A lot of single moms pick losers boyfriends without thinking if they're a good person to have around their kids. There more conserned about their needs then their children. I can't remember the names, but their was that case in the 90's about the mother who locked her two sons in her car and pushed it into a lake because her new boyfriend didn't want to be a father. Rather then find someone else to be with (like someone who didn't mind dating someone with kids) she killed her kids to be with him.
I remember that case. I remember my mom was horrified by it.

It's insane how a parent will put a partner/boyfriend/girlfriend over their children.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:03 am

Its one of the major reasons I think I do not see myself dating any time soon. I read the article on yahoo about families who bring in males who are not the biological fathers having a high percentage of abuse and or death. It scary out there and I dont put myself on no high pedestal but if being single means keeping my son safe id rather do that then risk him by bringing in a stranger. Though im sort of wondering what woman would completely trust a boyfriend to be alone with an infant or toddler that was not his anyway? I dont understand that mentality at all. Maybe its because James is so young I can count on my fingers the number of times ive left him alone with family and still have 3 left. I just think alot of "Mothers" (and I use that term loosely for the ones im refering to) put themselves and their own needs over the fact that they bore a life and have a responsibility to protect said life.

Another thing that has bothered me are people who take in foster kids for the money and abuse them. Not only does this sicken me because its bad enough these kids were taking from their parents for them being fuck ups. But then they are placed in a home for people who are supposed to care for them, yet you hear horror stories of abuse and starvation. Like the case in Nj where she locked the boys in a room one of the brothers died of starvation the other was so weak it was disgusting. And the mom who was no prize herself was in jail..

Its completely scary and makes me glad I was raised with the proper sense to put my child first. Its one of the reasons im raising him alone now because when you become a parent your priorities should be about your children. Too many times have I read news stories about Mother, Boyfriends, step dads, or Fathers killing their own from abuse or for no good reason and it makes me wonder where that mentality went? The sad thing is this has been going on for awhile I remember the Susan Smith case back when I was in highschool. She drowned her babies because she thought it would keep the boyfriend who wanted to leave her. Andrea Yates to who mental illness asside (cause not everyone who suffers from that will do what she did). It just boggles my mind how a mother could even feel the compulsion to harm their child in that way. As a mom I know its rough there are times you feel like your at the end of your rope when they are tantruming when you are financially strapped. But when push comes to shove its a real parent who knows that dispite all the downs there are too many ups to do such an dispicable act.

Ugh sorry I went on a tangent this whole subject really gets to me. Even before I became a parent myself. Its just a sick world we live in, makes me really sad.
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Post by Tiff » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:42 am

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:
Another thing that has bothered me are people who take in foster kids for the money and abuse them. Not only does this sicken me because its bad enough these kids were taking from their parents for them being fuck ups. But then they are placed in a home for people who are supposed to care for them, yet you hear horror stories of abuse and starvation. Like the case in Nj where she locked the boys in a room one of the brothers died of starvation the other was so weak it was disgusting. And the mom who was no prize herself was in jail..
God, yes, the whole foster child racket disgusts me, as well. (not fostering children in general, but those who collect children and in turn collect the checks, then neglect/abuse the children). It's sickening. These kids come from homes expecting to be protected and loved, and instead they go from bad to worse.

Of course, the sheer NUMBER of children in my town who are fosters just appalls me. It goes to show how many bad parents/homes there are in t his town, with how many foster babies there are. When I was a pre-k aide in the public school here, we had about 4-5 foster kids in one class, each from a different home, not-related. It's really, really sad.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:06 pm

And you know to add to the media coverage thing. You would think that and the fact that we are more advanced in forensic science and that there are more involved agencies in child welfare that this kind of stuff would not go on so much. I could see how 40+ years ago child abuse, neglect and murder ran rampant. Back then agencies were just forming, and the news didnt cover every child disappearance like they do now. There were no Amber Alerts, if a child disappeared in a family that no one really noticed or monitored most of the time it was swept under the rug. Now adays you have the news, and people who are involved more in what families do and still you get these sick individuals who will harm their own kids.

And im torn with who I hate more, the ones who delibrately harm their own children or allow a partner to. Or the ones who take in kids for the money and harm them. Its like a poor kid has about a 60 percent chance of being born in a fucked up situation now adays and its sickening. And I think alot of it goes back to education we need to get to young people who are having kids as kids because alot of these broken homes and kids who are put into foster care are the children of mothers who are barely out of highschool or dropped out due to pregnancy. You know the story the 22 year old on her 4th child by four different fathers. Its crap like this that leads to alot of these stories of abuse and death. Then you got these fathers who decided that Hey im not ready to do the father thing but they were ready to have sex. Its a mess I think there should be a mandatory class on Responsibility. Because until that is driven home crap like this is going to keep happening.

Im not foolish enough to believe that teaching Abstinence is going to work for everyone, maybe years ago but too many kids are exposed to too much early now. I believe that teaching young adults about the consequences and being responsible for their actions needs to be done if were ever going to get these rising child murder and abuse cases down.
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Post by Gamer8585 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:56 pm

These kind of stories always make me sick when I hear about them. Its so hard to believe that anyone with children could intentionally hurt them. I have thought about this a bit and here is what I could come up with:

As has been stated it might just be that the increase in media coverage bring these events to light so it might just seem like more incidents are occurring.

There can be a lot of causes for the incidents themselves: There's the biological reasons such as Postpartum Psychosis, but a lot of times its probably more due to the break down of the family and the infantilization of adults.

It used to be that when two people were married they stayed together, even if they hated each other they would stay together until the child grew up and was reasonably ready for the world. Unfortunately now people think that they can just leave a relationship and think that everything will be ok. They don't really think about how it will affect the child, and beyond that how any new parental figure will relate to the child. Especially if the parent with custody dates a lot (A new mommy/daddy every week).

They may date someone that they think is great (who may be wonderful for them), but be very abusive toward the child. Many of those childless singles looking for dates are probably not going to be too happy if their new mate is constantly doting on their child, or having to cancel dates (or other "outings") because of the child.

Many of the parents that let this happen may be influenced by their partner (perhaps too scarred of loneliness to leave), or they may secretly harbor a grudge against the child since they may see him/her as: 1) A reminder of the previous relationship, or 2) An unfair burden they would rather be rid of.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not anti-single parent. There are plenty of unwed mothers and fathers that do a damn good job raising their children, and would raise hell and the devil himself if anyone tried to hurt their children. The problem I see is that these kinds of people are in decline versus the more selfish ones who view their children as little more then a cancer brought about by a bottle of vodka and a gas station condom.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:45 pm

Gamer8585 wrote: It used to be that when two people were married they stayed together, even if they hated each other they would stay together until the child grew up and was reasonably ready for the world. Unfortunately now people think that they can just leave a relationship and think that everything will be ok. They don't really think about how it will affect the child, and beyond that how any new parental figure will relate to the child. Especially if the parent with custody dates a lot (A new mommy/daddy every week).

They may date someone that they think is great (who may be wonderful for them), but be very abusive toward the child. Many of those childless singles looking for dates are probably not going to be too happy if their new mate is constantly doting on their child, or having to cancel dates (or other "outings") because of the child.

Many of the parents that let this happen may be influenced by their partner (perhaps too scarred of loneliness to leave), or they may secretly harbor a grudge against the child since they may see him/her as: 1) A reminder of the previous relationship, or 2) An unfair burden they would rather be rid of.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not anti-single parent. There are plenty of unwed mothers and fathers that do a damn good job raising their children, and would raise hell and the devil himself if anyone tried to hurt their children. The problem I see is that these kinds of people are in decline versus the more selfish ones who view their children as little more then a cancer brought about by a bottle of vodka and a gas station condom.

I agree with many your point there Gamer. It seems to me alot of women who end up single moms are so eager to find love again, they turn a blind eye to who they bring into their childs life. They fail to understand that who they date does not just affect themselves. And that there are some men that do get jealous of the attention a mother has to pay to their child(ren) in order to properly raise them. I dont make any exceptions whether it was a one night stand that produced the kid(s) or a marriage that went south. A parents duty first and foremost is to take care of their child if they decide to raise the child themselves. And as nice as it is to find love, if you know your significant other cannot handle the pressure or responsibilities that comes with being with you when your a single parent then that right there should tell you to end the relationship. Being alone is not an easy thing but if you want to protect your child you should be willing to make the sacrifice or wait till a good person comes around because for all the bad there are good men and women out there (for the single dads).

I dont agree with the whole media thing though I think the media coverage of these stories serves to point out stuff that used to be swept under the rug back in the days. Before people started caring about if a kid went missing or had signs of abuse. If not for the media id be scared to think of how many kids unsolved disappearances or how many abused kids would grow into scarred adults who repeats the cycle. Im not pro media but in some cases I do feel that their exposure of such stories are more helpful then harmful.

Another thing that bothered me is the news story of the solider who left her child with a boyfriend while she was in Iraq instead of the childs natural father. The boyfriend then killed the I believe 2 year old boy for crying to much. WTH? I mean yeah I dont believe my husband could care for my son, but id rather he had my son then some boyfriend if god forbid I couldnt raise him. And not even a new husband this guy was just her boyfriend and she leaves him to care for her son while shes fighting over seas. Um what happened to other family? I just dont know.

And to touch upon the Mental Illness card, once again as someone who has a personal closeness to that subject I can say from my point of view that its a cop out for anyone to use that as an excuse to harm your child(ren). I suffer from schizophrenia and bipolar disease, but unlike alot of people I got the help and found resources which are out there to cope with my disorders. There are plenty of agencies that help people who suffer from depression, and various mental illnesses. And many states offer FREE help to those who cannot afford it. Heck in Florida even after I lost my job and had no health insurance I was able to go to a mental health clinic for free so I know its true. And NAMI is a association for mental illness and has resources to help people. So to me any woman or man who uses "oh Im mentally disabled thats why I harmed or murdered my kids" deserve just as much punishment as a so called normal person.

In parenting its never going to be a 100 percent easy. But some people just use any excuse to cop out of doing what they should to properly raise their kids. And then they let the pressure build instead of seeking help and the end result is abuse, neglect and death.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Tiff » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:46 pm

Gamer8585 wrote: It used to be that when two people were married they stayed together, even if they hated each other they would stay together until the child grew up and was reasonably ready for the world. Unfortunately now people think that they can just leave a relationship and think that everything will be ok. They don't really think about how it will affect the child, and beyond that how any new parental figure will relate to the child. Especially if the parent with custody dates a lot (A new mommy/daddy every week).

They may date someone that they think is great (who may be wonderful for them), but be very abusive toward the child. Many of those childless singles looking for dates are probably not going to be too happy if their new mate is constantly doting on their child, or having to cancel dates (or other "outings") because of the child.

While I agree that hopping from substitute parent to substitute parent can be damaging if said substitute parent is an asshat AND if it's inconsistant...staying in a relationship for the sole sake of a child is NOT always a good idea. In fact, more often than not, it isn't.

A child isn't stupid. They can sense when mommy and daddy aren't happy. They can sense resentment and anger far more than people realize. If the parents are battling it out day after day, there is no reason for the child to see that daily. There's no reason to put a child through daily anger and misery just so they can have two parents.

A child can get along fine with one parent, so long as that parent is devoted to the child first and foremost, and learns to put themselves second when it comes to dating and loneliness. If they're so lonely, they can get a cat until that child is old enough and mama/daddy can find some time to date. And then they need to practice EXCELLENT judgement while dating. Indeed, partner hopping is not a good idea and it confuses the child and provides them with a lack of consistancy.

If a parent can finda POSITIVE and GOOD partner to consistantly date/marry after breaking up with the child's biological father/mother, then it's far less damaging to the child than being miserable while staying with said person.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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Post by NameGoesHere » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:29 am

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:It seems to me alot of women who end up single moms are so eager to find love again, they turn a blind eye to who they bring into their childs life.
Then they obviously have no idea what love is. Your children are the truest love you will ever know. I don't even like being around children, and I can figure that out.

People aren't desperate for real love, they're desperate for a socially constructed "necessity." They grow up in a world that tells them they are not complete without the other half. They think they need to be romantically involved, or else they're miserable failures. Who wants to be a failure? Friends aren't enough, family isn't enough, your children aren't enough to make you happy. Gotta find a man, gotta find a man, gotta find a man!

This is what I believe to be the basis (not the full cause, of course) of most of those cases where mothers ignore abuse by boyfriends.

I'm extremely tired right now, so I'll probably address the rest of the issue at another time. I'd like to be coherent when I do it. x_X
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Post by Tiff » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:37 am

NameGoesHere wrote: Then they obviously have no idea what love is. Your children are the truest love you will ever know. I don't even like being around children, and I can figure that out.

People aren't desperate for real love, they're desperate for a socially constructed "necessity." They grow up in a world that tells them they are not complete without the other half. They think they need to be romantically involved, or else they're miserable failures. Who wants to be a failure? Friends aren't enough, family isn't enough, your children aren't enough to make you happy. Gotta find a man, gotta find a man, gotta find a man!

This is what I believe to be the basis (not the full cause, of course) of most of those cases where mothers ignore abuse by boyfriends.

I'm extremely tired right now, so I'll probably address the rest of the issue at another time. I'd like to be coherent when I do it. x_X
Excellent points, NGH.

It seems too many people feel worthless without a partner to "Justify" their existance. Being yourself should be enough, with friends and children and lovers as a perk.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:45 am

What really bugs me is the story that was mentioned earlier "Baby Grace" is what mother in her right mind or even out of it would help dispose of their murdered child? Even if It meant Id be killed as well id had used my last breath to make sure that bastard paid for harming my kid. I dunno maybe its only some animals that would readily die to protect their young. But to actually aide him in disposing of the body really disgusts me. Its bad enough you have to protect children from the sickos of the outside world, but now they hardly have buffers from their homes to and it dont make much sense to me.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

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