Double Standards with Women

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Post by peachvampiress » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:38 pm

Rainbow
I suppose some of the problems with these double-standards is that there have been efforts to let women be more like the guys stereotypically were supposed to be (like there's women's sports and girls are allowed to wear pants and stuff) but the men are too scared to do things that would be stereotypically feminine. I think it's kinda unfair that guys can't wear skirts if they want to, but girls can wear pants.
I've always thought the reason for this was because it seems to be easier to make men's clothes more feminine, but it's almost impossible to make women's clothes more masculine. With pants, all you have to do is lower/shape the waist, make the fit more shaply, switch which side the fly facing is on, flare the hem or add cuffs and voila, women's pants. When it goes the other way, say making a skirt for men, there's not much you can do aside from lengthing it to make it more appealing to men.

Although I have read a lot of Fashion History books and you'd be suprised how often designers have tried to make men's skirts. They just never seem to catch on.
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Post by Kohdok » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:56 pm

Oh man.

Don't get me started on this.

In my High School, there were some rich girls that had what I describe as "Privilaged Princess Syndrome". Once we had a gathering in a room where there weren't enough seats, so several people were standing up. It was a first come-first serve thing until one of the PPS's scoffed before saying in the most annoying bitchy way possible.

"A girl is standing up," as if to assume that some guy would stand up to let her friend sit down.

Naturally, I immediately put in my word in and mentioned that it was rude, saying "Why should we stand up for you?"

Then somebody said, "It's courtesy," as if I was the dumbest person in the world.

That only infuriated me even more. I felt this girl wasn't entitled to a seat she had made no effort to claim until after those who had claimed them had sat down, and she had not worked any harder than the rest of us, she was only being a spoiled brat. However, as I seemed to be the only one who saw the problem, I had to let it go. I felt that people who all out demand courtesy should not be given any if it has no merit, and yet playing the gender card somehow makes it fair? I just cannot stand that idea.

Also, when it comes to divorces, the mother is automatically the one who has a better chance of getting the children (In America, at least), even if the father gets along better with the children than she does. I remember seeing a report long ago that ran an online poll as they showed the story, and 75% of the viewers said that the father deserved custody, but the mother got them, anyway.
Yeah, WTF. Mom and I watch those shows religiously, and it amazes me how many mothers are entitlement bitches. It's like... "well I had the baby and even though I don't want it and am making the father take care of it, I still shouldn't have to pay for it." Please. You don't deserve an award for having the kid and dumping it off because you still want to party and be young. if anything, you deserve to be punished.
I agree. It's not like she's the only woman to do so (Give birth, that is). Also, if they were still married while she was pregnant, has she already forgotten the one who probably went out in the middle of the night to buy her 15 pounds of Lima Beans to fill her cravings? (My dad sure did...)

My parents are divorced, as well, but they played fast and loose with the child custody, not really caring if we spend an extra night at mom's or go on a trip with dad. I feel lucky in that regard. They knew their marriage was going wrong and took care of it early.
A double standard that annoys me is when women clamor for equal rights and then insist that the man pays or in regards to military service. These women are the "weaker sex" when it suits them.
Another common trait of the PPS's. These people want to have their cake and eat it, too, and it just disgusts me. If you want to have equal rights, you'd better have equal responsibility, too.
Last edited by Kohdok on Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Tiff » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 pm

peachvampiress wrote:
I've always thought the reason for this was because it seems to be easier to make men's clothes more feminine, but it's almost impossible to make women's clothes more masculine. With pants, all you have to do is lower/shape the waist, make the fit more shaply, switch which side the fly facing is on, flare the hem or add cuffs and voila, women's pants. When it goes the other way, say making a skirt for men, there's not much you can do aside from lengthing it to make it more appealing to men.

Although I have read a lot of Fashion History books and you'd be suprised how often designers have tried to make men's skirts. They just never seem to catch on.
*Nods* You make an excellent point.

Also, it isn't like suddenly men aren't "allowed" to wear skirts...skirts and dresses were originally designed and always have been designed to be a female garment. As peach said, it's pretty hard to make a dress or a skirt that looks GOOD on a man, and honestly some garments just...don't look right on the opposite sex. It's a matter of the general male and female body type. Sure, there are the occasional thin, pretty, shiny crossdrossing boys who look fine in a dress (usually after some hormonal and body changes, too). But in GENERAL? Putting a guy in a skirt just...looks horrid.

In my High School, there were some rich girls that had what I describe as "Privaleged Princess Syndrome". Once we had a gathering in a room where there weren't enough seats, so several people were standing up. It was a first come-first serve thing until one of the PPS's scoffed before saying in the most annoying bitchy way possible.

"A girl is standing up," as if to assume that some guy would stand up to let her friend sit down.

Naturally, I immediately put in my word in and mentioned that it was rude, saying "Why should we stand up for you?"

Then somebody said, "It's courtesy," as if I was the dumbest person in the world.

That only infuriated me even more. I felt this girl wasn't entitled to a seat, as she had not worked any harder than the rest of us, she was only being a spoiled brat. However, as I seemed to be the only one who saw the problem, I had to let it go. I felt that people who all out demand courtesy should not be given any if it has no merit, and yet playing the gender card somehow makes it fair? I just cannot stand that idea.
While I DO understand the point you're trying to make here, I think that's moreso of an old-fashioned courtesy thing rather than an entitlement bitch thing. I think it's old-fashioned courtesy for men to offer up a seat for a lady when all of the seats are full...it's kind of the same line as offering up seats for the elderly or sick. We're talking way back in the days when all women were "ladies" and men were "gentlemen", and women were perceived as delicate and such.

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Post by usachan » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:10 pm

Kohdok wrote:
"A girl is standing up," as if to assume that some guy would stand up to let her friend sit down.

Naturally, I immediately put in my word in and mentioned that it was rude, saying "Why should we stand up for you?"

Then somebody said, "It's courtesy," as if I was the dumbest person in the world.

That only infuriated me even more. I felt this girl wasn't entitled to a seat she had made no effort to claim until after those who had claimed them had sat down, and she had not worked any harder than the rest of us, she was only being a spoiled brat. However, as I seemed to be the only one who saw the problem, I had to let it go. I felt that people who all out demand courtesy should not be given any if it has no merit, and yet playing the gender card somehow makes it fair? I just cannot stand that idea.
to have equal rights, you'd better have equal responsibility, too.
Oh my gosh. This is one of my pet peeves. I hate how guys are always expected to give up their seat for girl's because it's "the right thing to do."
It's like, why is that?
Because you are girl you are automatically better than I am and deserve my seat? No, you should've gotten here five minutes earlier just like I did.
And something that irritates me even more is how I feel like I couldn't go anywhere an be this open about this issue. If I did, I'm automatically a "sexist pig" who hates women, which couldn't be further from the truth. Most of my friends are females, but I have a problem with the idea they should be treated better than I am throughout life. Sadly, I don't think this will change in my lifetime.

A big problem I had was at the job I was working at for a while. There were certain jobs that girls didn't have to do.
For example, girls never had to work late night closing shifts, something I found myself doing just about every night. It just irritated me how girls were getting special treatment.

Gosh, I could honestly probably go on about this forever.

Edit: Sorry Tiff, I didn't see the last part of your post before.
I know what you mean about it being old fashion courtesy, but as we have been saying throughout this topic, now that women are starting to be treated more as "equals" this old-fashion courtesy shouldn't be an expectation. It's nice to have old-fashioned courtesy, and to be honest I try to behave like this as much as possible, but I don't like it when people expect it of me. You shouldn't be considered a horrible person because you are a man and you didn't give up your chair for a woman who is standing.
Last edited by usachan on Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:10 pm

I agree its sort of along the lines of seeing an elderly person and getting up and giving them your seat. Do I think its all that fair to expect a guy to give up their seat to a female? Not if theres nothing wrong with the person and they can stand. But in most cases its expected of a guy to give up their seats to be a gentleman, thought the age of chivalry has long since been dead in my eyes. And lol if ya read the history books that age werent so great either.
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Post by Kohdok » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:11 pm

Tiff wrote:While I DO understand the point you're trying to make here, I think that's moreso of an old-fashioned courtesy thing rather than an entitlement bitch thing. I think it's old-fashioned courtesy for men to offer up a seat for a lady when all of the seats are full...it's kind of the same line as offering up seats for the elderly or sick. We're talking way back in the days when all women were "ladies" and men were "gentlemen", and women were perceived as delicate and such.
These girls were the same ones that would say that women should get all of those rights but, like someone else mentioned "Are the weaker sex when it's convenient". I mentioned that part about the perception of frailness, later. If she had been old, sick, or otherwise frail, I would have had no problem in giving up a seat, as I often do with such people. Most people saw it as an old-fashioned courtesy, but this girl was just using it because she felt entitled, which irked me. Had she asked politely for a seat, rather than saying "A girl is standing up" as if it was some sort of condemnable crime, I wouldn't have felt so offended.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:15 pm

Kohdok wrote:
Tiff wrote:While I DO understand the point you're trying to make here, I think that's moreso of an old-fashioned courtesy thing rather than an entitlement bitch thing. I think it's old-fashioned courtesy for men to offer up a seat for a lady when all of the seats are full...it's kind of the same line as offering up seats for the elderly or sick. We're talking way back in the days when all women were "ladies" and men were "gentlemen", and women were perceived as delicate and such.
These girls were the same ones that would say that women should get all of those rights but, like someone else mentioned "Are the weaker sex when it's convenient". I mentioned that part about the perception of frailness, later. If she had been old, sick, or otherwise frail, I would have had no problem in giving up a seat, as I often do with such people. Most people saw it as an old-fashioned courtesy, but this girl was just using it because she felt entitled, which irked me. Had she asked politely for a seat, rather than saying "A girl is standing up" as if it was some sort of condemnable crime, I wouldn't have felt so offended.

In that instance the wench would have stood lol. I dont like being ordered about myself so I cant imagine doing that to someone just to get a seat. Entitled women make my head hurt, they say they want equality but when it comes to getting what they want they will pull the "oh im just a girl" crap with no problem. Makes it harder on us women who do pull our own weight and then some. Ive actually had men go "oh your going to pull that girly crap on us and not pull your share." Only to suprize them by doing my share and then some. I believe that gender should not limit a persons abilities.
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Post by peachvampiress » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:18 pm

Kohdok
It was a first come-first serve thing until one of the PPS's scoffed before saying in the most annoying bitchy way possible.

"A girl is standing up," as if to assume that some guy would stand up to let her friend sit down.
If I was you I totally would have look right at her and said "Where?"

Tiff
*Nods* You make an excellent point.

Also, it isn't like suddenly men aren't "allowed" to wear skirts...skirts and dresses were originally designed and always have been designed to be a female garment. As peach said, it's pretty hard to make a dress or a skirt that looks GOOD on a man, and honestly some garments just...don't look right on the opposite sex. It's a matter of the general male and female body type. Sure, there are the occasional thin, pretty, shiny crossdrossing boys who look fine in a dress (usually after some hormonal and body changes, too). But in GENERAL? Putting a guy in a skirt just...looks horrid.
Random fashion fact. I can't remember what the book was called, but it was about 80's fashion and they had a photo of men's mini skirt a designer made. It was shot from the back, was just above the knees, and the model was wearing bright tights underneath it (so no bare legs). It was truely a thing of horror.
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Post by Kohdok » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:21 pm

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:In that instance the wench would have stood, lol. I don't like being ordered about myself so I cant imagine doing that to someone just to get a seat. Entitled women make my head hurt, they say they want equality but when it comes to getting what they want they will pull the "oh I'm just a girl" crap with no problem. Makes it harder on us women who do pull our own weight and then some. Ive actually had men go "oh your going to pull that girly crap on us and not pull your share." Only to surprise them by doing my share and then some. I believe that gender should not limit a persons abilities.
Amen, sister! There is so much truth in that statement. Sojourner Truth said something very similar in the 1800's in her speech "Ain't I a Woman?". It's a very enlightening little rant on female stereotypes from someone who was denied feminine courtesy her entire life.

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Post by Rainbow » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:52 am

I actually don't know that much about fashion, I was just going by what I had heard. Not to mention I'm not very good at being visually observant, so I don't think I would be able to tell if an article of clothing looks bad on someone or not. That and it doesn't matter to me anyway.

I guess technically there ARE some things, like robes and kilts, that really are more like skirts for guys, so maybe that wasn't the best point to use. Maybe a better double standard would be that many guys (not all, there are obviously exceptions) wouldn't want to wear pink. Unless I'm wrong about that too. :oops:
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Post by Slrjoecool » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:07 am

Rainbow wrote:Maybe a better double standard would be that many guys (not all, there are obviously exceptions) wouldn't want to wear pink. Unless I'm wrong about that too. :oops:
Actually, I would say pink is a fairly common color in men's clothing. (At least judging by the stores I shop at.) I personally have no problem wearing pink, as it's just a color. It's not like the clothing color means something about the person.
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Post by Kohdok » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:21 pm

Slrjoecool wrote:Actually, I would say pink is a fairly common color in men's clothing. (At least judging by the stores I shop at.) I personally have no problem wearing pink, as it's just a color. It's not like the clothing color means something about the person.
Actually, what I've heard lately is that the guys wearing pink trend has shown up because it apparently holds an appeal when a man is willing to wear pink, normally seen as a girly color. I don't claim to be a fashion genius, either, but that's what I've heard.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:55 pm

I was going to say something about Kilts myself but I tend not to refer to them as skirts. Tends to tick off my scottish buddies. And I think they are totally masculine, went to a highland games one year and man oh man some of them guys have the legs to pull it off and even the ones that didnt looked fine.


I guess I use a double standard myself but unless its a kilt I really cant see myself taking a guy seriously in a skirt. Now ive hung out with straight drag queens but when they are in their fem persona I treat them like women. Its just how I am. If a guy came up to me in a dress my natural assumption is he wants to be one of the girls. It is probably wrong for me to think that way but its my first thought.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




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Post by Kohdok » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:13 pm

Senshi_of_Vision wrote:I guess I use a double standard myself but unless its a kilt I really cant see myself taking a guy seriously in a skirt. Now ive hung out with straight drag queens but when they are in their fem persona I treat them like women. Its just how I am. If a guy came up to me in a dress my natural assumption is he wants to be one of the girls. It is probably wrong for me to think that way but its my first thought.
True. Actually, most transvestites are straight, from what I have seen. Even in anime, though probably a bad example, the guys who dress up in drag are often extremely straight (Tsubasa Kurenai, Seki, etc.). Eddy Izzard says the same thing about himself (Though he typically wears pants...) :roll: . The men I have met who will willingly wear girl's clothing tend to assert their straightness, but aren't afraid to act a little feminine.

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Post by Mercurius Twin » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:33 pm

peachvampiress wrote:Kohdok
It was a first come-first serve thing until one of the PPS's scoffed before saying in the most annoying bitchy way possible.

"A girl is standing up," as if to assume that some guy would stand up to let her friend sit down.
If I was you I totally would have look right at her and said "Where?"
You wouldn't be able to do that if you were a boy, though. She'd call you a jerk (or some other thing), and slap you across the face. Then, someone else would give her a seat, because 70% of the room now sympathizes with her, despite her earlier attitude.

Which I think is another thing that's a bit off. When in an argument with a man, a woman can get out of it by using that slap, and she's 100% in the right, in everyone's eyes. If a guy tries it with a girl, it's assault, and he's seen as a morally depraved lunatic. Neither one should be able to do that, I think...

... Don't even get me started on the "Girls are allowed to be masculine, but boys aren't allowed to be feminine" thing. I hate that idea...
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Post by SeiUsa » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:46 pm

Slrjoecool wrote:Actually, I would say pink is a fairly common color in men's clothing. (At least judging by the stores I shop at.) I personally have no problem wearing pink, as it's just a color. It's not like the clothing color means something about the person.
Thank you. T___T I don't know why people get so worked up over the color pink. It's just the color red mixed with white.
Actually, what I've heard lately is that the guys wearing pink trend has shown up because it apparently holds an appeal when a man is willing to wear pink, normally seen as a girly color. I don't claim to be a fashion genius, either, but that's what I've heard.
You mean like "real men wear pink"? I kind of agree with that quote. As said earlier, it's just a freakin color.
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Post by Kohdok » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:57 pm

Mercurius Twin wrote:Which I think is another thing that's a bit off. When in an argument with a man, a woman can get out of it by using that slap, and she's 100% in the right, in everyone's eyes. If a guy tries it with a girl, it's assault, and he's seen as a morally depraved lunatic. Neither one should be able to do that, I think...
Or you could do the good Quaker thing and laugh at it, saying "And I thought boys were supposed to be the violent ones." The whole point of that slap is to provoke a violent response, or lack thereof. Most don't expect to be laughed at. It might not garner much more support, but it will make people think (Hopefully).

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Post by Gamer8585 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:59 pm

SeiUsa wrote:
Slrjoecool wrote:Actually, I would say pink is a fairly common color in men's clothing. (At least judging by the stores I shop at.) I personally have no problem wearing pink, as it's just a color. It's not like the clothing color means something about the person.
Thank you. T___T I don't know why people get so worked up over the color pink. It's just the color red mixed with white.
Well, in society its the most feminine color (I don't know why, but it is). So if a guy wears something pink it takes away from his masculinity and/or makes him appear homosexual to others.
SeiUsa wrote:
Slrjoecool wrote:Actually, what I've heard lately is that the guys wearing pink trend has shown up because it apparently holds an appeal when a man is willing to wear pink, normally seen as a girly color. I don't claim to be a fashion genius, either, but that's what I've heard.
You mean like "real men wear pink"? I kind of agree with that quote. As said earlier, it's just a freakin color.
I once saw Mick Jagger wear a pink shirt during a Stones concert, and...well...he pulled it off. I guess some guys can just do it. Not me though, people would just think I was gay if I wore a pink shirt.
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Post by the*blue*girl » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:09 pm

i hate how people think that a guy can't do cetain things because they're "girly" things. for example, on my color guard team, which largely includes dance and yeah, EMOTION *gasp*, there's a boy who not only is a pretty good dancer, but also likes Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura and hangs out with girls. everyone assumes he's gay. i had people say to me in school before, "that little blond kid in guard is gay, right?" and i'm like "WTF NO." ignorent people. you don't have to be gay to like dance.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:06 pm

Its ridiculos period what guys are not allowed to do or feel because it makes them seem girly. Um maybe its because I am female but I dont see anything wrong with wanting to be feminine at times. What the heck sometimes a good cry is needed no matter who you are.

Dancing last I check is definately not limited to females cause im a girl and ive pretty much got two left feet lol (and that shoots down the whole black people can dance thing as well lol)

Another thing is the color pink is just that a color that is bright, living in florida specially when I was in orlando youd see alot of bright pink and aqua blue. I have a nice dress shirt my son wore for christmas under a navy blue sweater that was pink and it looked adorable.

To me in general people need to get off the whole "its gay thing" cause gay people are people too and unless they act the sterotype most gay people I know are not flaming flayboyant or going around dressed in all pink anyway. I think ignorant people would be suprized how many gay people there are out there that you cannot tell they are homosexual till you get to know them. and how many men who enjoy wearing womens clothing and cosplaying as females are hetorosexual.


And to me if your going to give something you should not be suprised if you get it back. I have never hit a person male or female unless it was in retaliation or to fight back. I dont believe in using a smack to solve a problem when I can most likely cut a person down with my words. To me any woman who hits a man and gets away with it will one day get her ass kicked either by a male or another female cause karma is a bitch.
"Have you been half asleep? And have youve heard voices?
I hear them calling my name."
Is this the sweet sound, that calls the young sailors?
The voice maybe one in the same.
Ive heard it too many times to ignore it,
its something that I sposed to be..
Someday we''''ll find it, the rainbow connection
The lover, the dreamer, and me..."




*Being a bad girl is such hard work....

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