Immigration

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Immigration

Post by SeiUsa » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:04 am

Since it is such a big issue, I thought we could all discuss immigration. I asked for Tiff's permission since it can be such a heated debate and she said we could. Just please don't turn it into an ugly racist thing like many other message boards do.

OK, my opinion: I'm actually torn on the subject. If a family comes illegally and they have small children and whatnot, it would feel it bit cold-hearted for me to send them back to a country that isn't good for them to grow up in (depending where they came from and what part). BUT, if it's true that an illegal immigrant came get treatment from a hospital for free while all legals have to pay, that is just ridiculous and senseless to me.

So...what is everyone else's opinion on the subject?
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Post by Panda » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:54 am

Let them come.

They work for damn near nothing (well... the mexicans do. I don't know if were talking about any asian countries as well?) And they've never really steered us wrong. Sure, the free health-care is kinda iffy but I don't see why it matter to much. The majority of them come here poor. They aren't going to have the money to pay anyway which would just make things more complicated than they should be.


The only thing I don't like particularly about hispanis immigrants is that some of them don't bother to learn English. I don't like going to Wal-Mart and having to figure out what is spanish and what isn't. This is particularly true for Texans...
If any asian person moved here they would get on the English Learning-Ball fast.


(I love hispanics BTW. They are all very nice people from my perspective.)

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:33 am

There are some linked issues here. So I say yes, completely open the borders, BUT. . .

-Junk the minimum wage. In fact, get rid of W-4s, permission-to-work forms, copies of your ID, all of it. Companies hire illegal immigrants because they can do so under the unheard-of employment structure of "You work for me all day, I hand you cash at the end." That's how it should be, if people want it. If the employer doesn't want to offer 401(k)s and vacations and a dental plan (for when Lisa needs braces), and wants to pay $2/hour for a 10-hour day, and if the people are still willing to take it because that $20 is more money than they can make at home, then why should they be stopped?

-Involve the countries of origin. Lay down the law thus: you should provide us with a background of all people entering our country, including criminal records, associations with criminal groups, or radical views. If we have this, our government can keep tabs on them and it becomes its responsibility. If the country of origin chooses not to provide this background, and the immigrant commits a "regular" crime, we may deal with him or her more harshly. But if the immigrant is involved with a terrorist act, and the home country failed to give us pertinent information, then it's their responsibility and we can enforce sanctions or military actions against the country as though it were a co-conspirator.
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Post by Tiff » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:19 am

ADMIN MODE:

Again, as with any heated debate, I'm going to give ya'll a warning ahead of time. Please do NOT turn this into an ugly debate. Debate intelligently, maturely, and do not in ANY way disrespect anybody's opinions.

No name-calling, racism, and insults, please. Play nice.

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Post by Tiff » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:27 am

Now for my opinion.

My best friend Joanime's husband is from Wales. He is having to bust his ass and spend tons of money to become an American citizen.

Now I ask you this..if he should have to do it, then why note veryone else?

If we're letting Mexicans/Latinos/etc in without having to bother with american citizenship..then hell, let's let every other Asian, European, and Middle Easterner do the same.

It just plain isn't fair, and I don't care how good of a worker you are..if you come to a country and plan on living there, you need to somehow become a citizen of some country, or follow that country's citizenship laws, whatever they may be.

-Involve the countries of origin. Lay down the law thus: you should provide us with a background of all people entering our country, including criminal records, associations with criminal groups, or radical views. If we have this, our government can keep tabs on them and it becomes its responsibility. If the country of origin chooses not to provide this background, and the immigrant commits a "regular" crime, we may deal with him or her more harshly. But if the immigrant is involved with a terrorist act, and the home country failed to give us pertinent information, then it's their responsibility and we can enforce sanctions or military actions against the country as though it were a co-conspirator.
That's a novel idea, and I like it, but it's probably way too hard to actually do. I can't imagine how many countries would cooperate with us on that issue.


They work for damn near nothing (well... the mexicans do. I don't know if were talking about any asian countries as well?) And they've never really steered us wrong. Sure, the free health-care is kinda iffy but I don't see why it matter to much. The majority of them come here poor. They aren't going to have the money to pay anyway which would just make things more complicated than they should be.
So?

As tragic as it is, the poverty-stricken people of other countries are NOT our responsbility. America is not responsible for babysitting every other country int he world. We have poverty-stricken people HERE. How about hooking THEM up with free healthcare and jobs? Why not take care of our own before accepting in poor people from another country?

Are charities and such like the Children's Christian Network (I think that's the name) or the food/supplies we fly into poverty-stricken countries nice? Sure. It's great. But we are NOT obligated to do these things. I, for one, do not have the obligation to hand over my paycheck to every poor person in the world.

I had to work for healthcare. I have to pay for it. So should they. That's the way the economy works. You have money, you get things. You don't have money, you do without. My fiancee didn't have healthcare from age 18 to 24. He JUST now was able to get it. Has he survived okay? Yep. When he was sick, he did what he could.
The only thing I don't like particularly about hispanis immigrants is that some of them don't bother to learn English. I don't like going to Wal-Mart and having to figure out what is spanish and what isn't. This is particularly true for Texans...
This is my biggest annoyance on the issue, indeed.

You're coming to America to live? LEARN THE FUCKING LANGUAGE.

I teach, as you all know, and you can't imagine how frustrating it is when I have to talk to the parent about something important, and I simply can't. Sometimes, an older sibling can translate for me, but sometimes we're just plain stuck. I only know basic Spanish, not enough for complex conversation. If I can't develop a connection with my parents, I cannot effectively teach.

The most frustrating part abuot this is that most towns OFFER free or really cheap english courses, and yet they don't take advantage of them.

I have a teacher friend who is a Hispanic male. He went to Japan for two years to teach.

Guess what? He can speak Japanese. Beautifully. Becuase he BOTHERED TO LEARN IT.

Bottom line? My grandmother is Mexican. She's here legally. If she could do it back then, then they can do it now.

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Post by peachvampiress » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:00 am

I live in Canada, so illegal Mexican immigrants aren't really a problem here, but the area I live in has a very high population of East Indian immigrants, and we face many of the same challenges. The biggest being the language issue, which I third. To me it just seems like common courtesy to learn the language of the country you're staying in.

Recently there was an East Indian woman that I worked with who didn't know any English. She didn't follow any of the instructions, pretended she understood what was said, and couldn't read any of the labels. She slowed us down and made us work even harder (and when your job is stocking shelves, every little second counts).

A few summers ago I went to Japan with three other people. My karate instructor, who had been studying Japanese for ten years, me, who not only spent two years learning to speak but read, another girl, who was taught English and Japanese since birth, and a guy named Jason, who read a book on the language on the plane ride there, and expected everyone else to translate for him. Guess who looked like the idiot. Guess who embarassed himself several times. Guess who was mocked, not only by my group, but by the homestay families.

Immigrants should be taught the countrie's language so that they can adapted quicker and recieve the benefits on the country sooner, not be catered to by citizens who have to learn their language to "make them feel more comfortable".
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Post by Sailorasteroid » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:14 am

Tiff wrote:
-Involve the countries of origin. Lay down the law thus: you should provide us with a background of all people entering our country, including criminal records, associations with criminal groups, or radical views. If we have this, our government can keep tabs on them and it becomes its responsibility. If the country of origin chooses not to provide this background, and the immigrant commits a "regular" crime, we may deal with him or her more harshly. But if the immigrant is involved with a terrorist act, and the home country failed to give us pertinent information, then it's their responsibility and we can enforce sanctions or military actions against the country as though it were a co-conspirator.
That's a novel idea, and I like it, but it's probably way too hard to actually do. I can't imagine how many countries would cooperate with us on that issue.
The major allied countries would cooperate, like the UK, Japan, probably even Russia and China. Places like Venezuela and Iran probably wouldn't. The hard part would be enforcement against the countries that didn't participate, unless we want to becomes conquistadors.
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Post by Panda » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:17 am

Ah, I'm always told I need to learn spanish if I'm living in texas. I swear, it's the rudest thing ever... Get those damn kids in ESL or something. I'm taking Latin (Okay... I am taking Spanish but that's only because I'd personally like to learn it. If they offered German or Japanese or Russian or something else I would be all over it.)

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I don't think some countries would cooperate well either. Most of the countries aren't even that big of a deal. In my opinion it's mainly Mexico/Cuba/other southern countries. And even if it did work it would be hell to keep track of if such a large number of people get here illegally.

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Post by Kazuki » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:03 pm

Well, here in the UK, we let almost EVERYONE from the EU into our country, it's all ready overpopulated, with 63 million inhabitants, which is ALOT for such a small country.

And for the language learning thing, they really should learn the language, I mean, there's a few people at my school who can't speak any English, if I was her family, I would actually learn a little english before coming here.

Also, I don't like people coming into the UK who make things worse, they've got here illegally, they should ATLEAST respect our culture, way of life, etc, not 'cause crime etc, it's like kicking our hospitality back in our faces
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Post by Rin » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:51 pm

My brother's girlfriend is from Holland. She had to wait almost a year to get her visa (is that the right word?) If she had to wait, so should they.

Yes they need to learn our language. If you move to another country, you learn the language.

Hell, why don't we just trade everyone who is too lazy to work in our country for all the illegals who will work?
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Post by Jeff » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:35 pm

Please, nobody be offended by this, but I think that most fears of immigration have to do with anglo-centricism and fear of the "other." Most of these arguments lead back to "They need to learn English." When was the last time you were seriously inconvenienced by somebody not knowing English?

I have a lot of recent immigrants in my family. My mom is an immigrant (England), and even though she came here legally when she was a child (American parents who were just living in England, so she has dual-citizenship) and sounds American she STILL has to go through all kinds of crap. For example, she was detained after coming back from Mexico last year. The system is a mess.

My grandpa's family came from Mexico, and although they came into the United States legally and knew English from the time they were children, one of my aunt's sons wasn't able to, because of some screwy Mexican law that required the (divorced, abusive) father's consent for a child to leave the country. So they snuck him over. I'm just sharing this story as an example of the fact that things aren't always as black and white as politicians and pundits try to make them appear.

That said, I do think that the current system is largely inadequate, and we do need to try something new. But I just don't see the huge problem with people speaking Spanish. In addition, and many people don't realize this: many families of Spanish descent in the Southwest have been there since before they were states, and they aren't immigrants at all. Their culture actually predates Anglophone culture in that region.

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Post by Panda » Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:36 pm

Knowing Spanish isn't the problem. This is America and our country speaks English. If America has to make room and put every thing in English and Spanish then we better put it in Chinese/Vietnamese/German/Russian/French/etc to. There is no reason why any immigrant group should get special privaleges over the other.

The immigration system is kinda messed up. So are alot of things. Since there's not much we can really do about that then we shouldn't worry to much about it.

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Post by NameGoesHere » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:58 pm

Jeff wrote:In addition, and many people don't realize this: many families of Spanish descent in the Southwest have been there since before they were states, and they aren't immigrants at all. Their culture actually predates Anglophone culture in that region.
That's a valid point, but I don't see Navajo and Choctaw sections in instruction booklets. Any Native American would have to speak English to get by in this country, so I don't see why Hispanics should be accommodated any more readily.
Jeff wrote:When was the last time you were seriously inconvenienced by somebody not knowing English?
I can certainly imagine where a language barrier could cause serious inconveniences. If an immigrant becomes ill and does not speak English, that could badly hurt their ability to get the care they need in time. If an immigrant is the victim of a crime and does not speak English, the police could have a much harder time catching the criminal and someone else could get hurt.

I'm not saying that immigrants should give up their culture and leave their own languages behind. Far from it. I have a passion for the sounds and concepts of other dialects, and I believe that everyone could benefit from learning a second language. But when it comes down to it, speaking English in an English speaking country doesn't seem like such a horrible thing to ask of people.

On to immigration itself...

All I can say is that people shouldn't break our laws and then expect us to treat them like family. There is a process for entering this country legally, and though it could really, really use some reform, it's still the law. Giving an illegal alien the same rights as a legal immigrant is nothing more than a slap in the face to the people who did it right.
Panda wrote:The immigration system is kinda messed up. So are alot of things. Since there's not much we can really do about that then we shouldn't worry to much about it.
I strongly disagree. There are many big problems in the world that could be taken care of if people would stop waving them off as "too much trouble." You can never hope to change the world unless you're willing to get your hands dirty and really work for it.
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Post by Tiff » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:17 pm

Jeff wrote:Please, nobody be offended by this, but I think that most fears of immigration have to do with anglo-centricism and fear of the "other." Most of these arguments lead back to "They need to learn English." When was the last time you were seriously inconvenienced by somebody not knowing English?
Um...I believe I already pointed that out.

*Points above*

Again, I am a teacher. I speak to parents every day. It is VERY inconvenient in my life and career if one of my students has a major problem, and I cannot communicate this to their parents becuase they don't speak a word of English. I feel like a monkey everytime they come in, gesturing wildly and speaking slowly and pointing.

I don't "fear the other". I've grown up around the world. I was born in Japan, and lived in Germany and Denmark. Oh, and guess what? When we lived in Denmark, every child received instruction in Danish. It was REQUIRED of non-Danish students, and I think it's a great idea. The same exact thing happened when we lived in Germany. Had we stayed in Denmark longer than a year and a half, i'd be able to fluently speak Danish. I still speak a small bit of German. When I was an infant in Japan, my Dad at the very least learned some Japanese. He can still speak it.

Another example of an inconvenience? Working retail every day, and 50% of your customers being non-english speaking Hispanics. I've had them get irate and downright mean with ME becuase I can't understand them. Bullshit. We need to stop catering to those who won't bother to learn the language, becuase I'll be damned if countries in Europe, or South America, or Asia would do the same. You'd better at least learn the basics if you're going to live there.

If we can do it, so can they. There is NO excuse. You go to a new country, you learn the damn language. That's why schools offer Bilingual education and ESL. It should NOT stop once a child becomes an adult. It honestly baffles me how people can survive everyday life without speaking a single word of the country's language, whether it be German, Danish, English, or Spanish.

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Post by the*blue*girl » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:40 pm

Tiff wrote: As tragic as it is, the poverty-stricken people of other countries are NOT our responsbility. America is not responsible for babysitting every other country int he world. We have poverty-stricken people HERE. How about hooking THEM up with free healthcare and jobs? Why not take care of our own before accepting in poor people from another country?
here here. as sad as it is to see other people in other countries messed up, we've got our own problems too.

something that never made sense to me; so, poor people come here, get treated like crap, and remain poor. so why bother coming in the first place? my mom is a teacher, and alot of the mexican kids she's taught were most likely illegal. they came to school half starved, unmotivated, and of course, not wanting to speak english. wouldn't they be better off in their own countries?

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Post by smfan423 » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:43 am

One thing that has bothered me about this issue is the way some people (mostly the hispanics you see on TV who I am sure are illegal or strongly support the arrival of more illegals) cloud the issue. Just because I hate illegal immigration does not mean I hate immigration (which I don't). Further, there should be no real debate because illegal means you committed a crime meaning every illegal immigrant in the country right now should be locked up and shipped home past a 10 ft high concrete wall complete with electrified barbed wire on the top and motion sensors (not to mention concrete going 5-10 feet belowground).

Another cloud in this "debate" is the use of the term racist. This issue is in no way even remotely racist because I would gladly give the same job to the same hispanic if he/she had come here legally. And of course all borders should be better guarded, but you maximize your resources and attention on the areas of greater trouble (that is why I am going so specific, but other nationalities/races commit the same but in far less numbers).

Now in addition to a wall on the southern border, we (America) must start enforcing our laws. If you hire illegal immigrats you will be punished. We must make it extremely costly to hire illegals esp when it comes to larger companies. Without a way to get in and no jobs, the illegal immigration will halt. Granted our economy will suffer a dip but Americans will work these jobs if they get paid a living wage and they will get a living wage because that is what companies will have to do. Key here, Americans will work, but for peanuts.

I would of course now go into ports and free trade, but these are separate issues.

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Post by Tiff » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:49 am

smfan423 wrote:
Another cloud in this "debate" is the use of the term racist. This issue is in no way even remotely racist because I would gladly give the same job to the same hispanic if he/she had come here legally. And of course all borders should be better guarded, but you maximize your resources and attention on the areas of greater trouble (that is why I am going so specific, but other nationalities/races commit the same but in far less numbers).
Yes. This is NOT a racist issue, and i'm tired of people (not here, but elsewhere) treating it as though it is.

This isn't about hating Mexicans. This is about illegal immigration, and how it's wrong and *gasp* against the LAW. I get so annoyed when people make this into a race issue.

I think the illegal immigrants should go home, but I'm part Mexican.

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:32 am

It bothers me too, because we've lost sight of what racism actually means. It used to mean judging one person based on the color of his skin or your knowledge of his ancestry. But it's come to mean judging any aspect of a culture that's not yours. Here's the difference: if you're hiring for the position of salesman and you look at an application and it says Luis Rodriguez, and you toss it in the trash, that's racism. If you call Luis Rodriguez for an interview and he says in a thick accent, "I would like to labor as your sales hombre," and you don't hire him because of it, it's not racism.
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Post by Tiff » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:26 am

Sailorasteroid wrote:It bothers me too, because we've lost sight of what racism actually means. It used to mean judging one person based on the color of his skin or your knowledge of his ancestry. But it's come to mean judging any aspect of a culture that's not yours. Here's the difference: if you're hiring for the position of salesman and you look at an application and it says Luis Rodriguez, and you toss it in the trash, that's racism. If you call Luis Rodriguez for an interview and he says in a thick accent, "I would like to labor as your sales hombre," and you don't hire him because of it, it's not racism.
Good description, Asteroid. And yes, a lot of people HAVE lost sight of racism. Although, I've experienced it firsthand at my last job, and it is NOT fun.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:21 am

Ok, i will try and make my opinion as short as possible.

Minimum wage = bad. I agree with asteroid.

Immigration = good, or rather, I have no problem with it.

Illegal immigration is bad too, i guess, but that's not the immigrants fault moreso than it's our own government's fault. They're so inconsistant and...........our immigration policies are just a horrible mess. I'm pro securing our borders first before we do ANYTHING, so that no more illegal immigrants can enter the country, that way it's fair for ALL immigrants (it's not fair that someone in wales has to wait 5 years to come here while someone in mexico just has to cross the border).

So what about the illegal immigrants already here? I'm completely 100% for giving them legal status in the country here. Why? They're already here, they're not leaving, they're not paying taxes, and they're using OUR taxpayer money for services. That's not fair, right, or smart. Give them legal status so they have to pay taxes, so they don't have to worry about deportation, and they can live happy normal lives here.

I cringe at the "ROUND UP ALL THE IMMIGRANTS AND SEND THEM HOME" argument. It's just not realistic in the sense of 1 - We couldn't possibly round them all up and send them all home, just wouldn't work, 2 - even if we COULD, if we did that our economy would COLLAPSE. Believe it or not, our economy relies on these immigrants: AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

Yay capitalism!!! =D!!!

TBA

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