Animal Rights

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Animal Rights

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:43 pm

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Post by Tiff » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:51 pm

Mmkay.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat or hunting for food. Hunting for spor/trophies, I don't really agree with, but as long as the meat is USED as much as possible, then I have no problem with hunting.

I don't agree with animal testing in terms of makeup and such. Saying "we don't need makeup" isn't really an argument, though. Nobody needs makeup, no, but we also don't NEED computers, cars, good-tasting foods, etc. People have to enjoy life, and makeup and accessories make people feel good. But it's unncessary to test makeup and such on animals, I agree. I'm noticing mostm akeup companies don't do animal testing, though.

However, in the name of scientific testing (such as antibiotics, treatments, etc), sometimes sacrificing a lab rat is necessary. I'd much rather have a cure to some serious disease at hand than not just becuase we want to spare the rat's life.

Ah, the fur argument...Honestly, I myself wouldn't wear it. It creeps me out to wear a dead animal's skin/fur/whatever. I don't even own real leather. But I'm not going to get in anyone's face if they want to wear fur. The trade/industry exists, it's reality, and as long as it exists, people are going to continue to buy fur coats/hats/whatever. And not ALL fur/leather industries make the animals suffer. We've seen a lot of the worst side of it from PETA and the media, but that is not the way every organization/company works. *Shrugs* again, I'm not going to tell anyone they don't have the right to buy a fur coat. It's their money, and yes, while they don't NEED it, as long as the industry legally exists, they have the right to spend their money how they want.

Now, let me ask you this..there are alaskan tribes and such that use animals for clothing. Do you think that's evil and wrong? How else are they supposed to survive? Some people don't have wal-mart even remotely NEAR them. They HAVE to kill a deer for fur or skin or food. This doesn't make them bad people. It means they're SURVIVING, just like animals have to kill to survive.

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:03 pm

The torture of animals for torture's sake is pointless at best, sadistic at worst. There's really no need for it; it serves no useful purpose.

However, I believe that animals are essentially property. Any individual or group should be able to breed, raise, and slaughter them for whatever purpose they want, including testing of chemicals, clothing, or food.

The reasoning is this: if animals have the right to life, then they also have the responsibility not to assault or kill each other. But animals are incapable of learning such responsibilities, or of overcoming their base instincts. The lion does not lie down with the lamb. So if they don't even respect each other's rights, we shouldn't either.
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Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:09 pm

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:12 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:So, since parents own their children before they come of age, should parents be allowed to do that to their children?
Parents do not own their children. To the contrary, parents have a responsibility to the children while the children are being raised. But my point being that humans are different from animals, and rights are part of that difference.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:15 pm

ADMIN MODE:

I'm going to say this right now. If this topic gets out of hand, it will be closed. I'm already suspicious that it was started as a direct attack against another user's comment in another topic elsewhere.

This is a controversial topic. If it becomes an insult-fest and a source of complete anger, I'm going to lock it.

You are all forewarned.

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Post by Tiff » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:23 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
Tiff wrote:Now, let me ask you this..there are alaskan tribes and such that use animals for clothing. Do you think that's evil and wrong? How else are they supposed to survive? Some people don't have wal-mart even remotely NEAR them. They HAVE to kill a deer for fur or skin or food. This doesn't make them bad people. It means they're SURVIVING, just like animals have to kill to survive.
I do belive it is evil and wrong. BUT, since they have NO other way to survive, then yes, then I accept that.
(the only reason I am double posting is becuase I posted once in admin mode, and now I am posting as a member)

So let me get this straight...do you believe EVERY person who existed in time without the means of synthetic and factory-made fibers or the means/ability to use cotton or wool is evil?

People sometimes don't have a choice. That doesn't make them evil. That's a pretty harsh choice of words, to call somebody's actions evil when they truly have no other choice. Why should people who live off the land (the way we were meant to do in the first place) be considered evil and be forced to move to the city and shop at walmart?
Parents do not own their children. To the contrary, parents have a responsibility to the children while the children are being raised. But my point being that humans are different from animals, and rights are part of that difference.
I agree with you here. Children are NOT property. They are not owned by their parents. Parents raise children to help them grow into individuals so they can live on their own...but they aren't property. Animals, however, often can be.

Farmers own their livestock. People own pets. That's not evil or wrong.

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Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:29 pm

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Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:33 pm

I have mixed feelings on this issue.

I think we are perfectly within our rights to eat other animals (were animals as well remeber) but I have nothing against anyone who choses not to eat them. I saw bravo for holding to your beliefs like that.

In reguards to testing animals I have to go with a case by case basis. Testing animals to make sure makeup products are good is.....for lack of a better word stupid. On the other hand if testing on animals can help us cure cancer then how can I say that it is wrong?

Another issues is circus animals. Ive actually done some research in this field and for the most part circus animals are treated with love. Most of the big time circuses treat their animals very well. I cant always say the same for the lower budgeted ones those. Animals should not ever be tortured for amusement.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:34 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
Tiff wrote:So let me get this straight...do you believe EVERY person who existed in time without the means of synthetic and factory-made fibers or the means/ability to use cotton or wool is evil?
Oh boy. This is one of those arugments that have a lot of 'grey' parts. We are all hypocrites at something and this is one issue I am one. Back in the past, technology was at a low, everyone ate meat, and they didn't have another way to survive without the protein. If you have absolutely NO choice what so ever, then for me that is an exception. A question on the cotton and wool thing, Tiff. Were animals killed back at the time for their wool? I'm OK with the removing the wool, but not killing an animal for their skin/hide/wool/whatever it is. If back at that time there was no other way, then that is also an acception for me.
1) Exactly. It has too many grey areas. You proved my point, right there. That's why I think you're being hateful for calling people evil becuase they choose to remain true to their heritage and live off the land. Or, in some cases, they don't even have a choice.

2) o_O i never said animals were killed for their wool. I'm saying some cultures/tribes/etc don't have access to cotton or wool.

3) There are people NOWADAYS who STILL don't have a choice.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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Post by peachvampiress » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:48 pm

I recall reading that a vegetarian diet results in more animal deaths than a meat diet. This is because more animals in the fields are killed during harvesting by farm equipment than animals in the meat industry.
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Post by SeiUsa » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:41 pm

Yeah, this can be a grey area. Well...I lost respect for Jennifer Lopez for killing off animals for a fur line. I mean honestly, how much more money does that woman need?! It's not like she's a struggling single mother who needs to put bread on the table.

However, if a lab rat can help find a cure for AIDs, then I am fine with that, because then it could probably help with AIDs-infected animals. I don't agree with what that PETA lady says: "Even if animals produced a cure for AIDs, we'd still be against it." (Um, yeah, there's only millions of children dying.)

A little off-topic, but barely: A friend of mine argues that you're a hypocrite if you don't wear fur/leather but you eat meat. You choose not to kill an animal (let's say a cow) because it's selfish and materialistic, but then you still kill the cow to stuff yourself with a hamburger. What do you think of this statement?
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Post by Sailormars Obsessed fan » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:43 pm

SeiUsa wrote:Yeah, this can be a grey area. Well...I lost respect for Jennifer Lopez for killing off animals for a fur line. I mean honestly, how much more money does that woman need?! It's not like she's a struggling single mother who needs to put bread on the table.

However, if a lab rat can help find a cure for AIDs, then I am fine with that, because then it could probably help with AIDs-infected animals. I don't agree with what that PETA lady says: "Even if animals produced a cure for AIDs, we'd still be against it." (Um, yeah, there's only millions of children dying.)

A little off-topic, but barely: A friend of mine argues that you're a hypocrite if you don't wear fur/leather but you eat meat. You choose not to kill an animal (let's say a cow) because it's selfish and materialistic, but then you still kill the cow to stuff yourself with a hamburger. What do you think of this statement?
the native americans had it best. when they killed an animal they would use it for food,clothing,weapons,etc. If your going to kill an animal at least try to use as much of it as you can.
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Post by Jeff » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:03 am

Let me just point out right here that I eat meat, so there is no confusion.

I think eating meat at all, in our day and age, involves some level of cognitive dissonance for most humans. Most people in developed societies have affections for certain animals like dogs or cats... yet pork is a very popular meat product. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, but if in this country, dogs were treated as pigs are, there would be massive outrage.

Personally, I love the taste of meat, but I live in a rural area, and I see a particular group of cows nearly every day. Over time I began to really think about what I was eating, but the final straw wasn't when I looked at a bloody piece of steak, which is quite good, but when I was feet away from a mother cow cradling her neck over her calf. Right at that moment, I knew that I would never eat a cow again, it wasn't even a decision. But I continue to eat chicken, pork, etcetera, so really, my inability to eat a cow is similar to most peoples' inability to eat a dog.

A year ago, I attempted to go completely vegan, but it only lasted two weeks. I think my failure was the result of the way I went about it - cutting everything out at once, and adapting to a drastically different diet. In two weeks' time, I felt sick and depressed. It was amazing how much I was accustomed to meat.

The reason I tried to go vegan at all was because of a DVD from PETA, which, when I think about it, makes me ashamed that I still eat what I do. The way animals are treated when they are alive and then butchered is horrific, and I was just in shock over this.

Evolutionarily, humans have become accustomed to eating meat. Clearly it is a design found all over the natural world. Being humans, though, we have the ability to evaluate the morality of certain behaviors. I believe that it is wrong to eat meat, even though I eat meat. It is nearly impossible to cut it out of my diet while living with my family, even though I am trying to phase it out. I think that eventually more and more humans will give up meat, but I don't like when people say, "In 50 years, people will look back on people who ate meat and treat it like slavery." It's really not like slavery; at the time of the Civil War there were a plethora of religious and contemporary voices speaking out against the immorality of slavery. Slavery, say, 2,000 years ago, might be similar to eating meat now. That is to say, it seems to make sense, even though perhaps some moral introspection might reveal otherwise, but for the most part it is something forced upon people.

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:14 am

I'm all for animal rights, but PETA has ruined any type of sympathy I might have once had. Again, I love animals and think they're great, but I'm going to have an anti-animal rights stance JUST to spite PETA. They have a good cause, but go about their business in the completely wrong way. I have a strong distaste for them. VERY strong.

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Post by NameGoesHere » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:28 am

If you kill an animal, I believe that you should honor the life you took by wasting as little as possible. I do not agree with hunters who only kill for a small trophy piece of an animal, while leaving the rest to waste. It is irresponsible and completely irreverent to nature. It may not be a human life, but it is still a life, and it deserves respect.

Evil entails intentional cruelty, malice, and hate. Someone who strings up a puppy in the backyard and beats it to death for leaving a stain on the carpet is a lot different than someone who shoots a deer for the family to eat.

It's all a matter of choice. I respect the choice of others to be vegetarian, and I expect the same courtesy in return. I don't attack vegetarians in restaurants for murdering the lettuce in their salad, because it is all part of the life cycle. No matter what diet you choose, something has to die to keep you alive.

Fur and leather are another issue. I don't particularly like furriers, because many of the skinned animals are taken for just their skins. The rest of the carcass is wasted, and that bothers me. Cow leather is different. It is taken from the cattle industry, where the carcass goes on to be processed for food. Less is wasted... and you see where I am going with this.

I would be much more comfortable wearing leather than fur, if it is commercial. If it were a rabbit skin from a hunting trip, then there would be no qualms, because I could ensure that nothing went to waste in the process.

All in all, I don't really read much into it. To me, it's not some deep psychological or social matter -- it is merely a matter of Mother Nature. People are omnivores. Omnivores eat meat. People just have the ability to choose not to. *shrugs*
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Post by SeiUsa » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:19 pm

Sailormars Obsessed fan wrote:
SeiUsa wrote:Yeah, this can be a grey area. Well...I lost respect for Jennifer Lopez for killing off animals for a fur line. I mean honestly, how much more money does that woman need?! It's not like she's a struggling single mother who needs to put bread on the table.

However, if a lab rat can help find a cure for AIDs, then I am fine with that, because then it could probably help with AIDs-infected animals. I don't agree with what that PETA lady says: "Even if animals produced a cure for AIDs, we'd still be against it." (Um, yeah, there's only millions of children dying.)

A little off-topic, but barely: A friend of mine argues that you're a hypocrite if you don't wear fur/leather but you eat meat. You choose not to kill an animal (let's say a cow) because it's selfish and materialistic, but then you still kill the cow to stuff yourself with a hamburger. What do you think of this statement?
the native americans had it best. when they killed an animal they would use it for food,clothing,weapons,etc. If your going to kill an animal at least try to use as much of it as you can.

Eh, that's not really what I meant. My friend is basically saying if you are anti-fur/leather then you should be a vegetarian too. It's like, if you don't want the cow to die for leather then you shouldn't let the cow die so you can have a Big Mac either. So I was asking what you think about that.
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Post by Musashi » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:33 pm

But you use more of the animal for meat then you do the skin. If you eat meat they'd be using more of the cow. If you wear leather they'd just take the skin off cows and leave the rest of their bodies, ne?
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:26 pm

I think though that when they kill a cow for leather, they use the rest for beef products. I highly doubt that they'd kill a cow JUST for the leather and leave the rest to rot. That's bad business, when they could just sell the beef and capitalize on the cow even more.

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Post by AnimatedEvey12 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:09 am

I'm also a little mixed on this issue. In my Junior year (which was really not so far back) my Peace and Justice class had a unit dedicated to Animal Rights. It would have been a more interesting topic if my teacher didn't focus too much on vegetarianism. I really would have liked to talk more about testing and all that.

I eat meat, but I try not to eat too much which pisses my parents off. I remember back on the 4th I had a BBQ with my brother and I ate more than the usual meat, so I didn't eat meat for about a week and my parents were mad because I was freaking out over my food choices. I have friends who are vegetarian, I respect their decision. Although one of my friends who recently went vegetarian said that her parents were really mad at her for not eating meat.

I could really care less about wearing fur. As for animal testing-as others have said if it's for cosmetics it's pointless. However, if animal testing leads us to a cure for AIDS or every cancer that exists then I fully support it.

PETA-Well, I do get why they want animals to be treated well. But I don't agree with their 'tactics'. I think it's distasteful that they have women nude for some of their ads. I also don't like how they bash people and now with the whole 'YOU CAN'T CALL YOURSELF AN ENVIRONMENTALIST IF YOU'RE NOT VEGETARIAN!' In one of their videos they state that eating meat is the number one cause of global warming and they've bashed Al Gore for not including that in his documentary.

Well that's my two cents on animal rights-mainly mixed ideas on this issue.
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