Abortion

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Post by the*blue*girl » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:58 pm

Jeff wrote:
If she's pregnant and doesn't want to be, she deserves the right to an abortion. No human has the right to use another human's body without that human's ongoing consent. If we give the fetus that right, we're giving it special rights that no other human has.
I mean no offense (honestly), but that statement is so disturbing I don't even know how to respond. You're basically admitting the fetus is a human and then justifying the killing of that human because it's a burden on the mother.

Babies do have special rights. Because they're babies. They're precious. And a mother has special responsibilities. That's how the world works.
-nodnod- Exactly how I feel. A life shouldn't be ended just because it's a burden on the mother who, in most cases, knew the risk of getting pregnent was there (unless we're talking abour rape, which is a whole 'nother can of worms). And if we give mother's the right to kill their babies, aren't we giving them special rights no other human has? ShanSunflower, you seem to contradict yourself a bit there.
Making abortion illegal will cause nothing but harm. If a woman really wants an abortion, she's dang well going to get one. For every pro-lifer who gets in my face with pictures of stillborns they are trying to tell me are aborted fetii, I'd like to stuff a picture in their face of a real woman who was really harmed by giving herself an abortion with a coat-hanger.

And that is one of the few reasons I don't think abortion should be made illegal. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it would stop happening; people would find other ways to have abortions, most of them dangerous.
Do you really think making abortion illegal will result in a wave of accidental deaths of that sort? Abortion procedures are considerably more advanced nowadays than they were before Roe V. Wade. I don't think people would be having "back-alley abortions." I think there would be trained physicians willing to perform abortions, just like euthanasia is practiced illicitly by some doctors now.
But would everybody have acess to these trained physicians? If you were a young, scared, desperate girl who didn't know where to go or what to do, then what? How would you know where to find these illegal doctors, who are few and far between? And if these doctors messed up, as doctors sometimes do, where could you go for help?

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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:56 pm

Jeff wrote:I'm afraid it's not that simple to somebody who believes a fetus is a human life. Genetically, a fetus is a human. Spiritually, I can't say when "life really begins," although it is pretty clear that it begins at conception biologically. In my opinion, if you risk killing a human but you don't really know for sure, it's better to err on the side of caution.
Life doesn't "begin". It's been ongoing for some billion or so years.
Do you really think making abortion illegal will result in a wave of accidental deaths of that sort? Abortion procedures are considerably more advanced nowadays than they were before Roe V. Wade. I don't think people would be having "back-alley abortions." I think there would be trained physicians willing to perform abortions, just like euthanasia is practiced illicitly by some doctors now.
How about the overcrowded adoption system getting even more crowded than it already is? How about the increase there will be in garbage bag babies?
I mean no offense (honestly), but that statement is so disturbing I don't even know how to respond. You're basically admitting the fetus is a human and then justifying the killing of that human because it's a burden on the mother.
We can, and do, kill organisms far more complex than a fetus in our daily life. What makes the fact that the fetus is human such an exception?
And yes, it is giving it special rights. No one else has those rights.
If there was a way to remove the fetus from the woman if she wishes it gone without killing it, then I'd support it all the way. However, at this time, there isn't.
Babies do have special rights. Because they're babies. They're precious.
If I don't want the fetus, it's not precious. And it's my right to have it removed because, like it or not, it is my body it is invading, and, if I don't want it, there's nothing wonderful or precious about it.
I am disturbed how some pro-lifers treat pregnancy and birth as a punishment ("like omfg u had secs so u deserv it, u slut!!!!111"), and then turn around and say how a fetus is a precious and wonderful gift.
And a mother has special responsibilities. That's how the world works.
Unless the woman already is a parent of born children, she's not a "mother". Parenthood should be a choice.

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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:03 pm

-nodnod- Exactly how I feel. A life shouldn't be ended just because it's a burden on the mother who, in most cases, knew the risk of getting pregnent was there (unless we're talking abour rape, which is a whole 'nother can of worms).
She knew the risk. Now she's dealing with the situation with an abortion.
Also, how is a rape fetus any different biologically than a consentual sex fetus? Why make an exception?
And if we give mother's the right to kill their babies, aren't we giving them special rights no other human has? ShanSunflower, you seem to contradict yourself a bit there.
They will not have that right until they are born.

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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:12 pm

Tiff wrote: *Applaude*

I'm sorry, but as someone who is currently pregnant, I see my baby as someone far more than "a user", or "a parasite", or any other of those terms that people like to use to justify free-for-all abortion (aka, abortion for no other reason than "omg i don't wanna baby even though I didn't take precautions").

Good for you. However, if a woman doesn't want a pregnancy, she is likely to disagree with you.

And again...what about the father? Does he have no rights?

Oh wait, I forget. Obviously the baby ONLY belongs to the mother, since it's OMIGAWD HER BODDDYYY.

God.
The father deserves a say but, in the end, it's the woman whose decision it is. Yes, it is her body.

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Post by Neon Heart » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Probably shouldn't triple post, but I think you brought up a lot of good points.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm

I look at it this way as a mother I can understand the arguments that fetuses are precious. I can understand how a person who wants to be a parent cherishes the life that grows inside them or their spouse. But as a person who does cherish that choice and the fact that I was given it I fully support those who do not wish to be parents and choose the option of abortion. Or those who have to make said choice for health reasons. It goes back to true womens rights and how lucky we are now adays to have them. You know about a century ago this argument couldnt have even been had because women were second class citizens. And that was was for the ones with money the poor had absolutely no rights and no voice. Nowadays women have the rights to say what is proper for their own bodies. Is it right to everyone? No but thats the beauty in being human we are not all the same, we dont think and feel alike. So yeah what is wrong to me and you may not seem so wrong to others. The gray lines that we personally feel on this subject should not affect those that are not as passionate about it. Im sorry but the moment we start making laws or suggesting laws for things like abortion we might as well start passing laws on how many kids a couple has. China does it why not the U.S.? Point blank the whole argument that its a woman's body is just that it really doesnt need too much justification because im pretty damned sure no woman wants someone just coming into their lives and saying "Hey you cant do this you can do that" no matter how strong they feel about this issue. If you can say that you want a law telling women what they can do with an unborn child fine, but be prepared for other laws that may infringe on other rights that you may not agree on. I look at it this way I feel blessed to be a mother. When I look at my son I know in my heart I made the right choice to keep him. But thats just it it was my choice, no one told me whether to keep him or get rid of him. I made the conscious decision to be a mom. Thats the beauty of choice, its there for an individual to use not a group, not a politician but the person.

And I try to respect a mans rights on this issue. I understand that there are men who are hurt by this, and I think married couples (those who arent in abusive situations of course) should be able to talk it out before such a decision is made. I believe in that situation strongly that abortion should be last resort. But Ive seen the argument for mens rights thrown up and im reminded of the man who sued a woman he was having sex with because she had the baby that resulted from said sex. His excuse for suing was because she "ruined his life." Stuff like that doesnt really make me to sympathetic to that whole fathers rights cause because most men who want their children try to do the right thing by getting married first or at least being in a serious relationship. I dont see many one night stand Steves out there crying in protests about abortions. Seriously if a man truly did want a child thought I said it before they should be given the right to sue for custody of the child and if a woman can carry said child to term without it being harmful to her health he can then be awarded sole custody. Thats how i feel on that subject its the only medium I can see for that situation.
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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:20 pm

ADMIN MODE:

ShanSunflower , do NOT triple post like that. Read the rules. Ify ou wanted to reply to three of us, you edit your post.

/ADMIN MODE

I'm not even going to further my argument in this thread, becuase i've repeated it over and over. If you want to read it, go back a few pages. This topic pisses me off enough as it is, because it's always black and white to certain people, and that's simply not how it is in reality. NOTHIGN like this is black and white.

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Post by Jeff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:04 pm

ShanSunflower wrote:Life doesn't "begin". It's been ongoing for some billion or so years.
Um... yes. Life started billions of years ago. I fail to see your point.
How about the overcrowded adoption system getting even more crowded than it already is? How about the increase there will be in garbage bag babies?
Abortion as a means of population control? Do we really want to go there? [See: Communist China]
We can, and do, kill organisms far more complex than a fetus in our daily life. What makes the fact that the fetus is human such an exception?

And yes, it is giving it special rights. No one else has those rights.
If there was a way to remove the fetus from the woman if she wishes it gone without killing it, then I'd support it all the way. However, at this time, there isn't.
When you equate humans with animals, there's little left to argue.

But I will say that children do have special rights. Parents have to provide for them. The state (for better or for worse) even attempts to enforce this. It's pretty much a universally recognized responsibility. An infant, after birth, usually depends upon a woman's milk for sustenance. It's using her body. But, even if baby formula hadn't been developed, nobody would argue that a mother had the right to simply stop feeding her baby.
If I don't want the fetus, it's not precious. And it's my right to have it removed because, like it or not, it is my body it is invading, and, if I don't want it, there's nothing wonderful or precious about it.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I think if you had a baby you might feel differently. Having an abortion isn't usually an emotionally easy thing even when a woman's mind is resolved that she should have one.
I am disturbed how some pro-lifers treat pregnancy and birth as a punishment ("like omfg u had secs so u deserv it, u slut!!!!111"), and then turn around and say how a fetus is a precious and wonderful gift.
I don't think pregnancy is a punishment... clearly the people having abortions (and, to be clear, I'm not taking about cases of rape, incest, health concerns, etc.) and speaking of babies as alien invaders do.
Unless the woman already is a parent of born children, she's not a "mother". Parenthood should be a choice.
No, she is an "expecting mother," and society tends to regard that as a stage of motherhood. And yes, parenthood should be a choice; no woman should be forced to conceive against her will.

When I hear the word "choice" used to justify, as Tiff put it, "free-for-all abortion," the word that pops into my head in response is "responsibility."

And, you know, if you do have an abortion for selfish reasons, fine. I ultimately have compassion for you. But you'd expect such people to maybe be a little sensitive about the issue and not proud, marching on Washington and shrieking about their sacrosanct "choice."

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Post by the*blue*girl » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:21 pm

ShanSunflower wrote:
-nodnod- Exactly how I feel. A life shouldn't be ended just because it's a burden on the mother who, in most cases, knew the risk of getting pregnent was there (unless we're talking abour rape, which is a whole 'nother can of worms).
She knew the risk. Now she's dealing with the situation with an abortion.
Also, how is a rape fetus any different biologically than a consentual sex fetus? Why make an exception?
So she made a choice, and doesn't like how it turned out? Wow, bummer for her. Take some responsibility. I don't view pregnancy as a punishment, just a consequence of a choice you made. Having an abortion just because you don't like how a choice turned out is, IMHO, very irresponsible.
And I'm not going to get into a rape victim baby; this discussion already happened a few pages ago.
And if we give mother's the right to kill their babies, aren't we giving them special rights no other human has? ShanSunflower, you seem to contradict yourself a bit there.
They will not have that right until they are born.[/quote]
Why not?

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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:35 pm

No, she is an "expecting mother," and society tends to regard that as a stage of motherhood. And yes, parenthood should be a choice; no woman should be forced to conceive against her will.
Thank you, Jeff. Hearing that I'm not a mother simply becuase I don't already have children walking around pissed me right the fuck off.

Pardon me, Shan Sunflower, but I am most certainly a mother to the child growing inside of me, just as Joe is that baby's father. I became a mother the moment I knew I had life within me.

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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:39 pm

Tiff wrote:
No, she is an "expecting mother," and society tends to regard that as a stage of motherhood. And yes, parenthood should be a choice; no woman should be forced to conceive against her will.
Thank you, Jeff. Hearing that I'm not a mother simply becuase I don't already have children walking around pissed me right the fuck off.

Pardon me, Shan Sunflower, but I am most certainly a mother to the child growing inside of me, just as Joe is that baby's father. I became a mother the moment I knew I had life within me.
There is no "child" right now. A child is, by definition, a born person aged 2-12 years.

You are a mother because you choose to be. If I'm pregnant and don't want to be, I don't want to be known as a mother.

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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:06 pm

Thank you, Jeff. Hearing that I'm not a mother simply becuase I don't already have children walking around pissed me right the fuck off.

Pardon me, Shan Sunflower, but I am most certainly a mother to the child growing inside of me, just as Joe is that baby's father. I became a mother the moment I knew I had life within me.
That's because you're choosing to be a mother.
A woman who gets an abortion is not a mother because she does not want the pregnancy. The only reason she would be considered a "mother" is if she already has one or more little ones running around. This is what I meant.


So she made a choice, and doesn't like how it turned out? Wow, bummer for her.
Consent to sex = consent to risk of pregnancy. Consent to risk of pregnancy =/= consent to remaining pregnant.
Take some responsibility.
Who are you to define what is and isn't responsible for someone else in a situation as complicated and personal as an unplanned pregnancy?
I don't view pregnancy as a punishment, just a consequence of a choice you made.
I can turn this around and say that a person who is in a car accident does not deserve the right to medical treatment. After all, they chose to get in the car, and every time you drive a car, you take that risk.
The woman does consent to sex, and sex is taking a risk, but this does not mean that she is not entitled to the medical treatment she feels is necessary should she become pregnant.
If you're forcing a woman to remain pregnant because she had sex then, yes, you are punishing her.
Having an abortion just because you don't like how a choice turned out is, IMHO, very irresponsible.
Bringing another human being with its own needs into the world who you can't and/or don't want to provide for is, IMHO, responsible.



But I will say that children do have special rights. Parents have to provide for them. The state (for better or for worse) even attempts to enforce this. It's pretty much a universally recognized responsibility. An infant, after birth, usually depends upon a woman's milk for sustenance. It's using her body. But, even if baby formula hadn't been developed, nobody would argue that a mother had the right to simply stop feeding her baby.
It's physically living inside the woman, using her nutrients, and the only way she can stop being pregnant is to have an abortion. A woman who does not want to take care of an infant or child can simply hand it over to the adoption system.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I think if you had a baby you might feel differently. Having an abortion isn't usually an emotionally easy thing even when a woman's mind is resolved that she should have one.
You think pregnancy and giving birth are a walk in the park, then?
I know several people with opinions the same as my own who are parents, by the way.
I don't think pregnancy is a punishment... clearly the people having abortions (and, to be clear, I'm not taking about cases of rape, incest, health concerns, etc.) and speaking of babies as alien invaders do.
I read it as a punishment mentality, seperate from the pro-life mentality, which supposedly values life. I've tried and tried, but I can't see how someone saying "you have to give birth because you had sex consentually" can truly value human life.
When I hear the word "choice" used to justify, as Tiff put it, "free-for-all abortion," the word that pops into my head in response is "responsibility."
In this case, "responsibility" is the woman making a decision based on what she feels is best for her, not what others feel is best for her.

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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:56 pm

ADMIN MODE:

...ShanSunflower, seriously, I JUST told you to edit your posts to reply to multiple users, and not to double/triple post. And yet you went ahead and double-posted anyway.

I don't know if it's the emotion of the subject matter that made you ignore what I said, or what.

So take a temporary ban on me, until Friday. Your ban will be lifted then.

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Post by Jeff » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:53 am

ShanSunflower wrote: You think pregnancy and giving birth are a walk in the park, then?
I know several people with opinions the same as my own who are parents, by the way.
Please show me where I ever insinuated that.
I read it as a punishment mentality, seperate from the pro-life mentality, which supposedly values life. I've tried and tried, but I can't see how someone saying "you have to give birth because you had sex consentually" can truly value human life.


Have you actually read my posts? I really hope I never implied that I wanted women to be punished. I actually think abortion hurts women.

I respect the pro-choice position. I don't think it's at all really obvious which side is the morally correct one, and in fact I used to hold pro-choice views. But I think your arguments in this thread are not a credit to that position. Here are some logical pro-choice positions:

-a fetus is not a human until some later point in its development
-a fetus is a human from the beginning or relatively early on, but does not fully experience sensations in the same way a more developed human does, and its mother's circumstances can sometimes take precedence over the pregnancy

Not that I particularly agree with those points but I can see how people would arrive at them. Treating abortion as some kind of miracle cure for unwanted pregnancy, however, is not a position I respect. If I were pro-choice, frankly, I wouldn't want to be associated with the views you've espoused in this thread.

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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:51 am

I have to agree with the others in this post, ShanSunflower you sound very passionate but abit misguided in your pro choice stance. Whether you agree or not all living organisms are in fact life, and a mother becomes a mother the moment her body becomes a host. She becomes a Parent once she chooses to birth and rear said child. But the scientific term for Mother If Im remembering right is a woman who holds a child in her body. Even if its for a brief time that is why the term Expecting Mother is used.

I have stated several times why I am pro choice, and why I personally hope to never have to use abortion. I understand that some come across as dead set against abortion in this thread just as many have stated mixed views. My whole thing is youve got to understand peoples rights to feel as they wish, its easy to get over heated on such a sensitive topic, but when we go picking apart everyones post it solves nothing. And it turns a mature debate into a mess and anger never solves anything. I hope when you get back from the ban you understand that while its easy to get worked up over a topic there is no reason to go over board and get so worked up on it. Stating your feelings is fine but when you go after what others say to prove yourself do not be suprized if ya get smacked down intellectually.

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Post by Neon Heart » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:19 am

There is no "child" right now. A child is, by definition, a born person aged 2-12 years.
So.. then what is the bundle that you hold in your arms, aged 0 months to one year? Just a bundle of nothing?

I thought you were making sense to me before, but looking at your most recent posts, you're coming off as pretty cold on this issue. Are you just bitter from a pregnancy gone bad, or something? I've never heard of a person just becoming a child at 2 years of age. Or are you being technical, by saying they become a child once they're done being a toddler?

I dunno... You just seem strangely bitter about it.
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Post by Starscream » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:27 pm

ShanSunflower wrote:
I don't view pregnancy as a punishment, just a consequence of a choice you made.
I can turn this around and say that a person who is in a car accident does not deserve the right to medical treatment. After all, they chose to get in the car, and every time you drive a car, you take that risk.
The woman does consent to sex, and sex is taking a risk, but this does not mean that she is not entitled to the medical treatment she feels is necessary should she become pregnant.
If you're forcing a woman to remain pregnant because she had sex then, yes, you are punishing her.
What a bullshit analogy. The purpose of sex is to procreate, whereas the purpose of driving a car is to get you from point A to point B, NOT to crash and injure yourself -_-
I don't think pregnancy is a punishment... clearly the people having abortions (and, to be clear, I'm not taking about cases of rape, incest, health concerns, etc.) and speaking of babies as alien invaders do.
I read it as a punishment mentality, seperate from the pro-life mentality, which supposedly values life. I've tried and tried, but I can't see how someone saying "you have to give birth because you had sex consentually" can truly value human life. [/quote]

I would love to know why a person who says "sex = baby" does not value human life. You partook in a biological process that is supposed to produce an intended result; might as well say that overeaters are "punished" by their weight gain if they don't expend the calories they consume -_-
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Post by Tiff » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:33 pm

Starscream wrote: What a bullshit analogy. The purpose of sex is to procreate, whereas the purpose of driving a car is to get you from point A to point B, NOT to crash and injure yourself -_-

I would love to know why a person who says "sex = baby" does not value human life. You partook in a biological process that is supposed to produce an intended result; might as well say that overeaters are "punished" by their weight gain if they don't expend the calories they consume -_-
Great points. It seems people have forgotten that the purpose of sex is to make a baby. It tends to have its perks in terms of pleasure and such, but all in all, its PURPOSE is to create another life. Human nature has just found its ways around it: condoms, birth control, fertilzation, etc.

And here's my question: Why don't those women who are so deadset against a child take PERMANENT precautions not to have one? Hell, if you're going to put your body through multiple abortions anyway, just take out your damn uterus and ovaries, and get it over with, since tube-tying isn't really a safe nor 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy (I've seen too many people suffer from tubal pregnancies). Then they could have all the happy-pleasure-sex they want, and not have to constantly have their unwanted babies vaccuumed out.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:39 pm

Tiff wrote:And here's my question: Why don't those women who are so deadset against a child take PERMANENT precautions not to have one? Hell, if you're going to put your body through multiple abortions anyway, just take out your damn uterus and ovaries, and get it over with, since tube-tying isn't really a safe nor 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy (I've seen too many people suffer from tubal pregnancies). Then they could have all the happy-pleasure-sex they want, and not have to constantly have their unwanted babies vaccuumed out.
I'm 22 and not a parent. Can you find me one doctor in Canada (I live in Canada), just one, who would be willing to perform such a surgery on me? Almost no doctors will because they fear I will "change my mind" later in life and then come back at them with a lawsuit. I know one American woman who applied in at least three states for the procedure, and was turned down in each and every one for that reason.
What a bullshit analogy. The purpose of sex is to procreate, whereas the purpose of driving a car is to get you from point A to point B, NOT to crash and injure yourself -_-
"Function" is not the same as "purpose".

Also, if sex is just for reproduction, then this does not explain:
-Why infertile people still have sex drives.
-Why people who are classified as being of "old age" still have interest in sex (the idea that "old people don't like sex" is a myth).
-Why homosexuals exist.
-Why people still have sex drives at points which reproduction is impossible.

Sex serves as a way of pair-bonding, not just baby-making.

Everytime you get into a car, you do so knowing full-well that you could get into an accident and if you get into an accident, you are capable of getting medical attention.
A woman has sex with the knowledge that pregnancy is a possibility. Why should she not be allowed to get the medical attention she feels is necessary if she gets pregnant?

So.. then what is the bundle that you hold in your arms, aged 0 months to one year? Just a bundle of nothing?

I thought you were making sense to me before, but looking at your most recent posts, you're coming off as pretty cold on this issue. Are you just bitter from a pregnancy gone bad, or something? I've never heard of a person just becoming a child at 2 years of age. Or are you being technical, by saying they become a child once they're done being a toddler?

I dunno... You just seem strangely bitter about it.
I'm being technical. Most often, when people use the term "child" in the abortion debate, they're very aware of what a "child" technically is, and are doing it to try and sway someone emotionally. I can't help but see it as the same as the protesters who walk around outside of women's health centres stuffing photographs of rotting stillborns (which they try to claim are 8-week-old fetuses) in people's faces.
Appealing to emotions or personal taste is not a good way to debate serious issues. I've seen it time and time again, and I've been debating abortion for a few years now. I guess I've seen it so many times that a voice in my head is saying "oh no... not this again...". That's probably why I seem bitter.

Have you actually read my posts? I really hope I never implied that I wanted women to be punished. I actually think abortion hurts women.
It doesn't hurt that many women. I feel that the idea of millions of women going through depression and regret is something which is very much exaggerated by the pro-life side. When it happens, it is usually because a woman was not absolutely sure of her decision to begin with. Most women who walk out of abortion clinics feel relieved, not devestated.

Not that I particularly agree with those points but I can see how people would arrive at them. Treating abortion as some kind of miracle cure for unwanted pregnancy, however, is not a position I respect. If I were pro-choice, frankly, I wouldn't want to be associated with the views you've espoused in this thread.
The thing is that if a woman is pregnant, does not want a pregnancy and wants the pregnancy to stop, abortion is the only direction she can turn to. I've said before that if there were another option for a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, I would support it.

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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:39 pm

ShanSunflower wrote: I'm 22 and not a parent. Can you find me one doctor in Canada (I live in Canada), just one, who would be willing to perform such a surgery on me? Almost no doctors will because they fear I will "change my mind" later in life and then come back at them with a lawsuit. I know one American woman who applied in at least three states for the procedure, and was turned down in each and every one for that reason.
*Shrugs* Not my problem.

Quite frankly, I think more doctors SHOULD offer it. It's a means of fertilization, it's more permanent than tube-tying, and it keeps people from whining and bitching about how unfair it is that they can't have 20 late-term abortions.

Also, if sex is just for reproduction, then this does not explain:
-Why infertile people still have sex drives.
-Why people who are classified as being of "old age" still have interest in sex (the idea that "old people don't like sex" is a myth).
-Why homosexuals exist.
-Why people still have sex drives at points which reproduction is impossible.

Sex serves as a way of pair-bonding, not just baby-making.
I'm not with my husband becuase of sex. If my husband COULDN'T have sex, I'd still be with him. So no, sorry.

Also, the PURPOSE of sex IS to pro-create. The fact that humans can become aroused is simply a perk. So can dolphins. It just happens to be that certain parts of our reproductive organs create arousal.

Homosexuals exist becuase human nature can become aroused, not because the basic purpose of sex is to procreate. In all honesty, I think on some level ALL people have homosexual tendencies..it just depends on how much one acts on it, or how strong it is in each person. Also, animals often exhibit homosexual behavior. And yet, animals fuck solely for procreation.
I guess I've seen it so many times that a voice in my head is saying "oh no... not this again...". That's probably why I seem bitter.
Which is exactly how I feel upon reading YOUR replies/points.
It doesn't hurt that many women. I feel that the idea of millions of women going through depression and regret is something which is very much exaggerated by the pro-life side. When it happens, it is usually because a woman was not absolutely sure of her decision to begin with. Most women who walk out of abortion clinics feel relieved, not devestated.
Any sources on this? Personal experience?

And multiple abortions can also fuck up a woman physically. What if Mary Sue decides after 5 abortions that she wants to have a kid? She probably won't be able to, becuase multiple abortions can really screw up a woman's reproductive system. But I suppose that's what lawsuits are for, right? "OMG the mean ol' doctors didn't warn me when I kept scraping out my babies, and now I can't have one"?

The thing is that if a woman is pregnant, does not want a pregnancy and wants the pregnancy to stop, abortion is the only direction she can turn to. I've said before that if there were another option for a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, I would support it.
Or she could, you know, wear a fucking condom, take the pill, use an IUD, get her tubes tied, have her partner get a vasectomy, or keep her pants on. But I suppose that's just too much to ask, what with all the cheap/free birth control that's available.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
-Friends

"In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn"
-Son of Man, Tarzan

"Why do we have to resort to nonviolence? Can’t we just kick their asses?"
-Leela, Futurama

~*Happily married to My Joe since 08/04/07*~

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