Abortion

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Post by Tiff » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:46 pm

Anthy wrote:Even sluts need to be protected. I try not to judge people based on their sexual behaviors.
That's where we disagree. I think if you're going to choose to be irresponsible and free with your body, then you need to understand and deal with the consequences of accidental births, sexually transmitted diseases, and the other things that may come of it.

I'm not saying she should have an award. Far from it. I just think that she shouldn't be penalized for it. Just because I was built to have children doesn't mean I will, or should, or am obligated to. I never said that the father is "discredited" or "inferior." I just think she should have more say over whether she bears a child, since SHE's the one bearing it, so it's a tougher decision for her.
Of course no woman is obliged to get pregnant and raise a family. But again, like I said..if you truly don't want kids, and you happen to get pregnant accidentally, then I see no problem with making a choice of either abortion or adoption. It's when women MAKE A HABIT OF IT that bothers me. Abortion isn't meant to be an easy way out of every freakin' accident that comes along.

And sure, it's a tougher decision or most women, but it just seems fathers have very little rights to me.
Anyways, my main biff with making abortion illegal is that emergency contraceptives will be next on the list. The rights for those are already being taken away. It's totally unacceptable.
Now that, I 100% agree with you on. It's getting scary how some places are refusing to sell regular birth control, let alone emergency birth control.

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Post by Anthy » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:58 pm

I've never known anyone who's made a habit of abortion. What a strange hobby. Something tells me there's probably a Japanese fetish site devoted to it, though.

So do you think that people who get STDs and unintended pregnancies deserve them, in a way? I think that promiscuity is a harmful habit, but even non-promiscuous people get into bad situations. It's sad, but it's a fact of life.
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Post by Tiff » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:06 pm

Anthy wrote:I've never known anyone who's made a habit of abortion. What a strange hobby. Something tells me there's probably a Japanese fetish site devoted to it, though.

So do you think that people who get STDs and unintended pregnancies deserve them, in a way? I think that promiscuity is a harmful habit, but even non-promiscuous people get into bad situations. It's sad, but it's a fact of life.
...o.O You're...taking what I'm saying a little too literally.

Nobody said anything about it being a hobby. I'm talking about the women who sleep around and everytime they get pregnant accidentally, they have an abortion. And yes, quite a few women do that, becuase abortion can be very easily accessible.

And yes, if someone goes out of their way to be irresponsible with their body, then they deserve any consequence they get. I chose to be clean and protected when I have sex, and I chose to have one partner. If someone else chooses to fuck around with 15 people a week and either doesn't use birth control/condoms or uses them sparingly, then I feel zero sympathy for them if they get an STD and/or pregnant. I feel sorry for the unborn child, on the other hand. There's quite a large line between being responsible and still getting pregnant by a fluke, or being a slut and oops! she's suddenly pregnant!

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Post by Anthy » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:31 pm

I guess I do agree with you, Tiff. Play with fire and you're bound to be burned.
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Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:25 pm

Yeah, I've read this thread over. And thought. And I think that a woman should go through the pregnancy if the father is 100% sure and committed to raise a child. And I also agree that you should have limited times you can get an abortion. Really, 10 abortions? I just find that sick..I mean I guess more than 3 is where it draws the line. But that is just my opinion. But like 10 abortions would be OK if you were raped 10 times but that is VERY unlikely to happen. So yeah, if the father is sure he wants the baby, that is the option she shouldn't get an abortion, any other reason, go right ahead. But if you are going to have 50 partners a month, you should get ready for consequences. Karma, what a virtue.

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Post by the*blue*girl » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:19 pm

im kinda in the middle of this. neutral, but leaning to pro-life. i belive that every life is precious, and that a baby shouldn't be punished for someone else's mistake. not to mention, i read in a health magazine that fetuses can actually feel pain when they're aborted. its not proven, but its something to think about. if you don't want the baby for whatever reason, give it up for adoption! give it a chance! there are plenty of people out there who would want it.

that beng said, i don't think abortion should be made illegal. i mean, like people said, there are extreme cases, like health reasons. there's no point in having the baby if its going to suffer and die from a genetic disease or something. and lets face it; lots of people would just get an illegal abortion, which is really dangerous. so i guess what im saying is, i think it's the women's choice, but i don't like it, and i'd never do it.

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Post by yamichan2 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:39 pm

I simply don't think it should be used as birth control. It isn't meant to be a "hey I got pregnant because I didn't care while I was having sex, but now I don't want it." It is a
"I was raped", "The child and I might die if I try to carry the baby to term", there was inscest of any kind involved, and "Oh shit, After trying every birth control method possible while having sex with one partner, I got pregnant but neither of us can really care for this baby."
Thing.

Least that is how I see it.

I personally would never have an abortion. I am sad to say that I am the perfect example of what a pro-life group would like to show off.

I was an accident, my parents weren't married, though they were in a commited relationship and they did try not to have a baby by the more reasonable methods. However I still happened.

Six HOURS before her appointment to abort me my mom decided not to go through with it. She couldn't live with herself if she had. My parents married a few months before I was born and have been together since. They have also had two other children.

Now my mom says that she is incredibly glad she kept me. However, the luck invovled there is incredible. The situation could have turned in so many different directions and I was just lucky that my parents were good enough people even at 19-20 years old to get married and take care of a baby. Not everyone can.


So while I will likely never abort a child, I am also responsible with my body. I also wouldn't be psychologically able to do something like that. Especially now that I have seen the absolutely adorable baby that my cousin just had.

But like I said that is my personal opinion and I am not going to get angry if someone dissagrees.
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Post by Sailor V » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:26 pm

I would never consider an abortion. I would just give the baby away if it ever came down to that. I'm still a virgin, and if I was ever raped, I would carry it to term, then give it up. I do not believe in abortion, however, I do believe other people have a choice in what they do. Of they want to get an abortion, then just let them, it's their decision. The only time I would have an abortion was if he baby I was carrying was ectopic. That would be it.
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Post by SeiUsa » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:33 pm

I've been thinking over the "It's my body" argument, and it grows more ridiculous each time I think about it. Heck, if that's the case, then let's make it OK for a pregnant woman to not gain enough weight because she doesn't want to get "OMG FAT."And I'm talking about those who purposely do it here. And let's also make it acceptable for the same woman to smoke, drink and crack out while she's preganant simply because it's her body and she can do what she wants with it.

That's how I see it, at least. Sorry if I offend anybody. Mostly I agree with everything Tiff said. You're not special just cuz you can give birth and it's your body.
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Post by Tiff » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:53 pm

SeiUsa wrote: And let's also make it acceptable for the same woman to smoke, drink and crack out while she's preganant simply because it's her body and she can do what she wants with it.
That's a good argument that I hadn't thought of.

Hell, it's bad enough that it's becoming "trendy" to smoke while pregnant so your baby is "smaller" and thus easier to give birth to.

And yes, this is becoming a real trend. Girls want preemies, for some godawful reason. It's SICKENING.

That's how I see it, at least. Sorry if I offend anybody. Mostly I agree with everything Tiff said. You're not special just cuz you can give birth and it's your body.
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Post by peachvampiress » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:20 am

Tiff
Hell, it's bad enough that it's becoming "trendy" to smoke while pregnant so your baby is "smaller" and thus easier to give birth to.

And yes, this is becoming a real trend. Girls want preemies, for some godawful reason. It's SICKENING.
I haven't heard that. That's seriously fucked up.

And you just know those mothers are the kind of people who'd throw an apocalypse sized hissy fit when they find out that their accessory child will have a stunted growth and never look like the normal kids.

Because who'd have thought cigarettes, alcohol and crack would cause permanent damage.
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Post by Neon Heart » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:22 am

peachvampiress wrote:Tiff
Hell, it's bad enough that it's becoming "trendy" to smoke while pregnant so your baby is "smaller" and thus easier to give birth to.

And yes, this is becoming a real trend. Girls want preemies, for some godawful reason. It's SICKENING.
I haven't heard that. That's seriously fucked up.

And you just know those mothers are the kind of people who'd throw an apocalypse sized hissy fit when they find out that their accessory child will have a stunted growth and never look like the normal kids.

Because who'd have thought cigarettes, alcohol and crack would cause permanent damage.
That's a disgusting habit. Why don't mothers make their fetuses anorexic, while they're at it? -_-
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Post by Tiff » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:36 am

Yeah it's pretty sickening...I've found little snippets about it here and there online.

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Post by Queen Of Hearts » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:34 pm

I am a strictly pro-choice person. I belive that abortion will not stop fully if it is illegal. There are still people who will get it done illegally and die that way. Regardless of the circumstances, its still better to get it done in a safe, healthy enviorment then in a unhealthy one. Also, the number one global killer of women is birth and pregnancy. I think it is very selfish and controling to make a choice for thousands and thousands of women. Reguardless of why they are getting an abortion, quite frankly, it is none of your business. They have their resons for getting one and you have your own resons for not getting one.
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Post by Senshi_of_Vision » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:21 pm

I agree with Queen of Hearts..well maybe save that no one killer cause I always thought Heart Disease was the top.

Im not saying that abortion is right or wrong I dont have the time or patience to argue that. And like many others I do not think it should ever be used as a form of birth control. And like everything there is always going to be the few who abuse something. But for those women who have no choice, raped, incest, or cannot carry a child because of health then what? what do we do about them? I know that most of the arguements do not apply to them but still if abortion became illegal then what?


To me its the same as your other personal and private rights, if your not going around waving the fact that you have gotten this done around and believe me i dont see "Abortion Parades" then why are people up and arms about this? Why should someone elses religion or moral believes affect someone that they dont even know? Why should what I feel for my own body be the law for all women?

Would I get an abortion? I pray I never ever have to make such a choice. I pray I never get into a situation where the thought has to even enter my mind. But as a person who knows people who have had to make this decsion I can say with all honesty its a very painful process, both emotionally and phsyically. And for anyone to act as if people are just doing this to murder babies is just mind boggling to me.


I will give a small example of why I dont think people should make abortion illegal. Whether people will agree I dont care but this is why I believe it can be a neccessary choice for some women.

A very close person to me had to have this done. She was in a very abusive relationship. Already had 2 kids that she could not afford, and the beating she recieved at the hands of the man she married left the baby she was carrying with sever mental damage. Now if abortion had been illegal, she would have had to give birth to a mentally ill child (which I am not against many people do this and love their kids) on top of trying to get away from her situation with the two she had. I held her the night after she had this done, I watched her cry over the loss of this child. So for anyone to dare say its a flip choice or that its easy, try to walk a mile in a person who has done this shoes.

I feel myself getting worked up so I wont type too much more, this subject is a touchy one, and I tried to avoid this topic but like most I ended up reading. I understand people have strong view, Id like to think there could be a middle ground. If dont properly people can set up guidelines and catch anyone who dare abuse abortion. If clinics could be set up properly without the fear of nuts bombing them, they could keep accurate track of those who repeadly used this.

as for the father thing, if a father really wishes to have a woman carry his child then agrees to take full responsibility for said child I am for it to. As long as carrying the baby is not harmful for the mother.

The whole arguement of its my body is just that, it is a womans body, and just like its theirs to make the wrong choices. Its there to make all sorts of judgement. I never want to live in a society where what other people do dictates my own personal believes. The last time I checked thats not what this country is about and im damned sure glad of that.
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Post by ShanSunflower » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:33 am

I'm pro-choice regardless of whether:
-protection was or wasn't used
-the sex was consentual or not
-the woman is going to die or is in perfect health
-the woman is is happy-bunny-love with the man or the woman and the man had a one-night stand
-the pregnancy was originally wanted and/or planned
-the woman's age is 12 or 50
-the woman owns four fancy cars or is starving out on the street
-the woman is married or unmarried
It's all irrelevent to me. If she's pregnant and doesn't want to be, she deserves the right to an abortion. No human has the right to use another human's body without that human's ongoing consent. If we give the fetus that right, we're giving it special rights that no other human has.

If someone doesn't like the idea of abortion, the solution is simply not to get one. Pro-"choice" means they have a "choice". If the woman wants to have an abortion, fine. If a woman wants to give it up for adoption or be its parent, that's fine, too.

Making abortion illegal will cause nothing but harm. If a woman really wants an abortion, she's dang well going to get one. For every pro-lifer who gets in my face with pictures of stillborns they are trying to tell me are aborted fetii, I'd like to stuff a picture in their face of a real woman who was really harmed by giving herself an abortion with a coat-hanger.

Instead of making abortion illegal, let's try to lessen the number of abortions instead. How? One big step is to abolish abstinance-only education. It doesn't work. Regardless of whatever the folks who put the system into place think, it's not doing good. It's doing harm. "Abstinance" should be taught as an option, and not the only option. Young people are coming out of school with no idea of how to protect themselves because all they've been told in school is not to have sex until they are married. Some of these programs throw out lies, such as "condoms only work 20% of the time". This leads young people to think "well, if it's that little, I may as well not bother with protection". Plus, with teenagers, being told not to do something just makes the idea of doing it all the more thrilling. Sex should be taught as something which is natural, and sexual desires should be taught as something completely natural and not "sinful", "evil", or "selfish".

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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:26 am

ShanSunflower wrote:
Instead of making abortion illegal, let's try to lessen the number of abortions instead. How? One big step is to abolish abstinance-only education. It doesn't work. Regardless of whatever the folks who put the system into place think, it's not doing good. It's doing harm. "Abstinance" should be taught as an option, and not the only option. Young people are coming out of school with no idea of how to protect themselves because all they've been told in school is not to have sex until they are married. Some of these programs throw out lies, such as "condoms only work 20% of the time". This leads young people to think "well, if it's that little, I may as well not bother with protection". Plus, with teenagers, being told not to do something just makes the idea of doing it all the more thrilling. Sex should be taught as something which is natural, and sexual desires should be taught as something completely natural and not "sinful", "evil", or "selfish".
Now TAHT, I totally agree with. Abstinence-only education is totally flawed. It's reality that teens have sex, sometimes, sadly, as young as 13 nowadays. But if they're going to, THEY NEED TO BE PROTECTED. End of story. They need to be educated about using condoms, birth control, and keeping themselves from getting pregnant or diseased if they're going to be sexually active.

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Post by yoshmaster5 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:34 am

Tiff wrote:
ShanSunflower wrote:
Instead of making abortion illegal, let's try to lessen the number of abortions instead. How? One big step is to abolish abstinance-only education. It doesn't work. Regardless of whatever the folks who put the system into place think, it's not doing good. It's doing harm. "Abstinance" should be taught as an option, and not the only option. Young people are coming out of school with no idea of how to protect themselves because all they've been told in school is not to have sex until they are married. Some of these programs throw out lies, such as "condoms only work 20% of the time". This leads young people to think "well, if it's that little, I may as well not bother with protection". Plus, with teenagers, being told not to do something just makes the idea of doing it all the more thrilling. Sex should be taught as something which is natural, and sexual desires should be taught as something completely natural and not "sinful", "evil", or "selfish".
Now TAHT, I totally agree with. Abstinence-only education is totally flawed. It's reality that teens have sex, sometimes, sadly, as young as 13 nowadays. But if they're going to, THEY NEED TO BE PROTECTED. End of story. They need to be educated about using condoms, birth control, and keeping themselves from getting pregnant or diseased if they're going to be sexually active.
Amen. A-freaking-men... That is just brilliant. Why can't people realise that not everyone has their own beliefs, and their ideals will not be followed by every being on Earth.

As for school education... if you're going to do this, you can stress abstinance, but realise that the amount of people that will follow it is about maybe... 50%. My school goes through all the different contraceptives... but the stress is on abstinance. That, being "The only 100% way to not get STD's or pregnant is Abstinance." while like... "condoms have about a 99.9% chance to work. but do you want to be the .1 percent that it will fail?"

Another issue, is that the majority of the country is in the grey area on abortion. most people have mixed thoughts, but all politicians have to pick one side, or they'll be ripped apart. it's kind of sad...
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Post by Jeff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:10 pm

ShanSunflower wrote:If someone doesn't like the idea of abortion, the solution is simply not to get one.
I'm afraid it's not that simple to somebody who believes a fetus is a human life. Genetically, a fetus is a human. Spiritually, I can't say when "life really begins," although it is pretty clear that it begins at conception biologically. In my opinion, if you risk killing a human but you don't really know for sure, it's better to err on the side of caution.
Making abortion illegal will cause nothing but harm. If a woman really wants an abortion, she's dang well going to get one. For every pro-lifer who gets in my face with pictures of stillborns they are trying to tell me are aborted fetii, I'd like to stuff a picture in their face of a real woman who was really harmed by giving herself an abortion with a coat-hanger.
Do you really think making abortion illegal will result in a wave of accidental deaths of that sort? Abortion procedures are considerably more advanced nowadays than they were before Roe V. Wade. I don't think people would be having "back-alley abortions." I think there would be trained physicians willing to perform abortions, just like euthanasia is practiced illicitly by some doctors now.
Instead of making abortion illegal, let's try to lessen the number of abortions instead. How? One big step is to abolish abstinance-only education. It doesn't work. Regardless of whatever the folks who put the system into place think, it's not doing good. It's doing harm. "Abstinance" should be taught as an option, and not the only option. Young people are coming out of school with no idea of how to protect themselves because all they've been told in school is not to have sex until they are married. Some of these programs throw out lies, such as "condoms only work 20% of the time". This leads young people to think "well, if it's that little, I may as well not bother with protection". Plus, with teenagers, being told not to do something just makes the idea of doing it all the more thrilling. Sex should be taught as something which is natural, and sexual desires should be taught as something completely natural and not "sinful", "evil", or "selfish".
I agree with you here. My county taught abstinence-only education. Contraceptive measures were not even mentioned; the focus was on "purity." The course was full of out-right lies and insinuations, like once girls have pre-marital sex they are worthless, and that guys who have pre-marital sex lose their strength and vitality.

But, here is where I take exception:
If she's pregnant and doesn't want to be, she deserves the right to an abortion. No human has the right to use another human's body without that human's ongoing consent. If we give the fetus that right, we're giving it special rights that no other human has.
I mean no offense (honestly), but that statement is so disturbing I don't even know how to respond. You're basically admitting the fetus is a human and then justifying the killing of that human because it's a burden on the mother.

Babies do have special rights. Because they're babies. They're precious. And a mother has special responsibilities. That's how the world works.

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Tiff
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Post by Tiff » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:12 pm

Jeff wrote:
I mean no offense (honestly), but that statement is so disturbing I don't even know how to respond. You're basically admitting the fetus is a human and then justifying the killing of that human because it's a burden on the mother.

Babies do have special rights. Because they're babies. They're precious. And a mother has special responsibilities. That's how the world works.
*Applaude*

I'm sorry, but as someone who is currently pregnant, I see my baby as someone far more than "a user", or "a parasite", or any other of those terms that people like to use to justify free-for-all abortion (aka, abortion for no other reason than "omg i don't wanna baby even though I didn't take precautions").

And again...what about the father? Does he have no rights?

Oh wait, I forget. Obviously the baby ONLY belongs to the mother, since it's OMIGAWD HER BODDDYYY.

God.

Joey: The question is, Rachel, does he like you? ''Cuz if he doesn''t, then it''s all just a moo point.
Rachel: Huh...a...moo point?
Joey: Yeah. It''''s like a cow''s opinion. It doesn''t matter....It''s moo.
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