Abortion

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Post by Sylphiel » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:39 pm

I must say I'm actually surprised there's that many pro-lifers here. I expected a lot more pro-choice.
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Post by Chibisteven » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:42 pm

Abortion I feel is okay, if it's neccessory to save a woman's life or if the woman was raped. When it starts to be use because of irresponsibility or unneccessory birth control then it crosses the line.

Of course, I'm not the judge of one's choices.

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Post by KoiNoVash » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:10 pm

I'm prochoice all the way.

I feel that is not my business nor the business of the government what a woman does with her body. However, unless she fears for her own safety, the woman should tell the baby's father and what he says should have some weight on the decision. Ultimately, though, I feel that the woman should have the final say on what happens.

I frown upon using abortion as a form of birthcontrol. One: it isn't exactly healthy. Two: if a woman has had three to four abortions just because she didn't want to have children, then she should examine her lifestyle and the other choices she makes.
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:13 pm

KoiNoVash wrote:I'm prochoice all the way.

I feel that is not my business nor the business of the government what a woman does with her body. However, unless she fears for her own safety, the woman should tell the baby's father and what he says should have some weight on the decision. Ultimately, though, I feel that the woman should have the final say on what happens.

I frown upon using abortion as a form of birthcontrol. One: it isn't exactly healthy. Two: if a woman has had three to four abortions just because she didn't want to have children, then she should examine her lifestyle and the other choices she makes.
See, I totally cringe at the "it's my body" argument. With pregnancy, there's so many other things going on, and more people involved to give the "it's my body" argument any type of validation in my book.

You also bring up a point that I can't believe I didn't mention anything about in my first post. The father's rights. Right now, I'm pretty sure that a father has absolutely NO rights when it comes to a mother deciding to have an abortion, and I think that's just.......inhuman. The father was just as much involved in that pregnancy as the woman was. Yes, the woman has to carry the baby for 9 months, but in my opinion that doesn't give women THAT much more bargaining power. I've heard so many cases where a father wants to keep the child and the woman doesn't and boom, abortion. Or even worse, the woman doesn't even tell the father. I think things like that should be illegal. How can you not tell the father? That's so horrible.

I feel that in the instance that the mother wants an abortion and the father doesn't, that the mother should have to carry the pregnancy. In that case, of course, compensation for the mother would have to be given (doctor bills, stuff like that, maybe even more financial compensation for just having to carry the pregnancy), but it's really hard to say; that might not even work. A situation where the mother wants the abortion and the father doesn't, that's just a mess no matter HOW much compromise you try and throw in there.

However, the standard that is set now is totally unfair to the father. Heck, for it to be fair, any mother who wants to keep a child when the father wants her to have the abortion should be able to compensate the mother with the 500 dollars or however much the abortion would cost, and then have no ties (financially, emotionally, patriarichally, etc) to that child whatsoever. Just be able to go "Here's 500 dollars (the cost of the abortion), i'm out of here". Of course we know that's not the case (child support, etc), but since when has life been "fair"??

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Post by SeiUsa » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:33 pm

I'm pretty torn on the subject, but I've thought about it...
Like everyone else said, it should be necessary in cases of rape or any danger to the body.
People say if you have sex on your own free will then you should face the consequences. But there's a problem of keeping the baby and it grows up in an unfit home and basically ends up screwed up. So people say, "If you can't take care of it, then give it up for adoption!" But I think that's just as bad as abortion, aren't you basically throwing it out of your life? Do you really know if it will be adopted at all? Yes, there are many infertile coupes out there, but with all the sperm-egg donors today then they are still able to conceive a child. And even if there are people who would be willing to adopt, the majority of those only want healthy, normal babies.

But what really annoys me is when I ask pro-lifers if they'll ever think about adopting, and they answer, "No, I want my OWN kid! Adopting just isn't the same!" -____-

Ok, I guess I make it sound like I'm pro-choice, but I'm neutral on the whole issue. I think it's wrong to abort a baby if you had sex like it was nothing, but also having it but giving it away because there's a chance it won't be adopted, and even if it is there are still so many orphans out there waiting for parents. I guess I'm more pro-abstinence all the way. There's my 2¢.
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Post by Musashi » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:27 am

I believe abortion is morally wrong, but... xD;
I am pro-choice. Yes, of course a raped woman or one at risk of harm or death should be able to get an abortion, but ones like the cousin somebody mentioned on the forums before... no. x.x
Condom. Pills. Whatever, just not an abortion every single time. I know those things can fail, but seriously- having 5+ abortions is just plain... creepy.
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Post by NameGoesHere » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:52 pm

SeiUsa - I am not directing any anger at you, but you brought up a point that I would like to address.

People need to be very careful with that "unfit home" argument. For one, it is a difficult status to define across the board. Many different people will have many different ideas as to what makes a home truly unfit to grow up in.

Are we to say something is unfit because it falls well below the standard of living? Are we to say something is unfit because one of the parents isn't there? Are we to say it is unfit if one or both of the parents have a problem with alcohol or anger?

Aborting to prevent hardships is akin to lopping off your hand so you don't burn your fingers on the stove. It is a move that is not to be taken lightly just because adoption doesn't always work.
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Post by Tiff » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:21 pm

NameGoesHere wrote:SeiUsa - I am not directing any anger at you, but you brought up a point that I would like to address.

People need to be very careful with that "unfit home" argument. For one, it is a difficult status to define across the board. Many different people will have many different ideas as to what makes a home truly unfit to grow up in.

Are we to say something is unfit because it falls well below the standard of living? Are we to say something is unfit because one of the parents isn't there? Are we to say it is unfit if one or both of the parents have a problem with alcohol or anger?

Aborting to prevent hardships is akin to lopping off your hand so you don't burn your fingers on the stove. It is a move that is not to be taken lightly just because adoption doesn't always work.
Indeed. "Unfit" is relative. Some may think "unfit" means that a child eats hot dogs every night instead of a balanced meal. Or others may think "unfit" means a single parent who is never there becuase she works two jobs. It's too broad of a generalization to delve into and decide which babies should be aborted so they aren't brought up in "unfit" homes. And then, once you've decided what your own definition of "unfit" is...how do you know that that child will end up "screwed up"?

Some of the sweetest, well-balanced, most intelligent people I know came from bad home situations. And every one of those home situations is different.

To say we should destroy a potentially well-balanced life simply becuase there's a CHANCE the child could end up "screwed up" is...pretty far-fetched, IMO.

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Post by Musashi » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:41 pm

Yeah, especially as most married couples are like okay, we're either gonna be a one-income family with one child and one stay-at-home parent or we're gonna be a two-income family with no children.
Yet I grew up (er, for the first eight or so years of my life, before the divorce) with two parents who were working while I was home with the maid and later on my baby sister. And I'm just fine.

But some people would probably deem my parents unfit for raising a child because neither will stay home with me.

But I'm not messed-up... Then again, it can be hard on the kid... or it might not even affect them at all, depending on the kid. Gak, that IS tough to define... x.x Umm, 'depends'? ^^;

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Post by Sylphiel » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:59 pm

Tiff wrote:To say we should destroy a potentially well-balanced life simply becuase there's a CHANCE the child could end up "screwed up" is...pretty far-fetched, IMO.
definitely. I really agree, which is one of the main reasons i'm pro-life. I also like the analogy that NGH made about the hand/stove thing, it works.

I'm with you Musashi. my parents got divorced when I was very, very young and it was essentially my birth (coupled with my mom's psychological issues) that lead to their divorce. I grew up in a really abusive environment half of the time, especially psychologically abusive, but sometimes physical too. half of the time I was with my father who loved me very much and treated me wonderfully, but the larger half I was with my mother's extremely dysfunctional family. it was a really conflicting situation to grow up in. And yeah, I have a lot of issues... but I'm in college, have close friends, have tried to be a good daughter, and I'd hope my presence in the world has done more good than harm. so I probably can't speak for everyone here (heh) but I'm glad I wasn't aborted. =P
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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:48 pm

NameGoesHere wrote:Aborting to prevent hardships is akin to lopping off your hand so you don't burn your fingers on the stove.
Oh man, that was a great analogy. *applaudes*

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Post by DreamEmpress » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:22 pm

Everyone makes good points. I just want to make that clear before I state my opinion.

Oh gosh, abortion is a hard topic. Everyone has feelings about both sides, but we all agree on the basics. We all feel that extreme cases are the exception. I'm glad we can all agree on that.

Except for the extreme, I believe the abortion option should not be used. It feels like a way to get out of a mistake, more often than not. So many women have trouble concieving and yet there are those who can easily have children and use abortion like birth control. To me, that seems wrong.

As for the adoption problem, I'm hoping that I can adopt when i get married. I've always wanted to adopt a child or two. I know adoption isn't a perfect answer, but it's better than punishing the child for something that it didn't have a choice in. And how do you know that, that one child's life is going to be ruined? Some of the most amazing people came from the most awkward of beginnings.

Yes, I know, I know. Everyone has their own ideas of when life starts. I figure if a fetus can grow, intake nurishment and kick you from the inside at some point, it's got to be alive in there.

As for men, I do agree they should have more voice in this. it takes two and it's not fair to have one person make all the choices without counsulting the other. This kind of thing affects more than just one person.

anyway, this is just my thoughts on it.

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Post by Tiff » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:33 pm

DreamEmpress wrote:
Oh gosh, abortion is a hard topic. Everyone has feelings about both sides, but we all agree on the basics.
Indeed. This is why I rarely discuss it. And not only does everyone have strong feelings about it, but there are so many grays, that the issue can never be black and white. It's very, very hard and very rare for someone to make a clear-cut opinion like "I AM TOTALLY AGAINST/FOR IT". Usually there are stipulations (liek we mentinoed above..health of mother/baby, rape, etc) involved, and it's become to the point where we can no longer flat-out say "pro-choice" or "pro-life".

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Post by Akarui Kibuno » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:18 am

Hi all! I'm not often here, but with such topics, I usually feel the "need" to reply.

I'm totally anti abortion for my own body. Just my own. Other than that, I'm mostly anti abortion, save for the rape/incest occasions mentioned here. And, while it tears me down to know that a perfectly healthy young woman who had sex willingly will have an abortion, I'm sure that most women don't have abortion just because they feel like it. I know deep down that this isn't just a choice like "Hmm ? Coca-Cola or Sprite ? Gee, I'll take Sprite" .

So, in a way, I understand these women.

The ones I totally don't understand and would like to smack reaaaaaaal hard in the head, though, are the ones who get repeat abortions without realizing that SAFE SEX and BIRTH CONTROL are a good thing.

Or the ones who get abortions for "selfish" reasons when they totally could raise the baby (if you really didn't want a baby, you would have used all the means available to avoid it!). But this one is a tough point, because I'm not one to judge one's reasons to get an abortion (save for the multiple abortion comment above).

I jush wish more women would realize that abortion isn't a light thing, and that you just can't have sex without worrying ever about the consequences. Sex is good, I know it, but damn, how hard is it to be careful ?
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Post by Tempest » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:10 am

Akarui Kibuno wrote: The ones I totally don't understand and would like to smack reaaaaaaal hard in the head, though, are the ones who get repeat abortions without realizing that SAFE SEX and BIRTH CONTROL are a good thing.

Or the ones who get abortions for "selfish" reasons when they totally could raise the baby (if you really didn't want a baby, you would have used all the means available to avoid it!). But this one is a tough point, because I'm not one to judge one's reasons to get an abortion (save for the multiple abortion comment above).

I jush wish more women would realize that abortion isn't a light thing, and that you just can't have sex without worrying ever about the consequences. Sex is good, I know it, but damn, how hard is it to be careful ?
I've seen the argument than the reason most people don't use protection is because it "doesn't feel natural". To me, that's just irresponsable and dare I say, "stupid". You're willing to risk disease and unwanted pregnancies because some people don't like the way condoms feel. ::shakes head:: I'm not against people who dont use protection if they are aware of the situations and willing accept the results of their actions, but don't go around bitching and blaming when you end up in a bad situation because you won't use a condom. It's call "protection" for a reason, people. That goes for both genders, not just women.
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Post by Panda » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:20 pm

I believe that if someone is not fit to be a parent than they should have the choice to abort and child. The same goes for those whom do. Even if they did keep the baby, they would be legally in charge of it until the age of 18 (or whatever your countries age limits are). They could easily just beat the kid to death once it's 3 and have to deal with a court system instead of just aborting. Which one sounds easier?

I'm physically incapable of having children. I don't wish to go into details on the situation but I can speak for just about every woman when I say that it's extremely hard to deal with a situation when you've been told you cannot bear a child. I could easily see it being as hard getting rid of one unborn.

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Post by Tiff » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:29 pm

Panda wrote:I believe that if someone is not fit to be a parent than they should have the choice to abort and child. The same goes for those whom do. Even if they did keep the baby, they would be legally in charge of it until the age of 18 (or whatever your countries age limits are). They could easily just beat the kid to death once it's 3 and have to deal with a court system instead of just aborting. Which one sounds easier?
But now we're back to the argument of what defines unfit? What you may think is "unfit" may not be the same as what someone else thinks is "unfit".

So you're saying that if a parent is potentially abusive and might end up beating a child to death, that that parent should be allowed to abort? Who can predict whether or not a parent will be abusive? The parent herself can't even predict that she'll be abusive or unfit. To me, that's an unrealistic and illogical argument.

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:40 pm

And on top of that, many children who have had extremely abusive parents have turned out to be great people, who have been a blessing in many people's lives.

Even if a parent is deemed "unfit" shouldn't take away from the value that that child might have towards those people he or she will know in the future.

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Post by Tiff » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:41 pm

AnimeGuru0 wrote:And on top of that, many children who have had extremely abusive parents have turned out to be great people, who have been a blessing in many people's lives.
Like my mother, who was abused by her father while her mother did nothing to stop it.

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Post by Jeff » Sun May 21, 2006 8:17 pm

This is an issue that really gives me a headache and that I can't side clearly on. I used to be extremely pro-life to go along with my other liberal beliefs, but recently I have had somewhat of a change of heart, because a friend of my mother had an abortion. I was never close to a situation that involved an abortion before. This woman was very excited to be pregnant, but sadly she found out that it her baby had a form of trisomy, and it would have severe defects and would die shortly after birth. The woman finally decided to have an abortion.

Being close to the situation, and seeing elation at the prospect of a new life and then the heartbreaking decision to have an abortion made me actually face that an abortion is the destruction of a life, whether it is human yet or not. I also agree with the mother's choice, because it was hers to make in this case, I believe, and nobody else's. So I cannot agree with and I feel uncomfortable siding with the pro-life movement, which I feel has no heart for situations like this (especially the Catholic pro-life groups)... but I also cannot connect with those who are so staunchly in favor of fewer restrictions on abortion. I feel like both sides fail to grasp the dignity of the baby and the mother.

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