Abortion

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Abortion

Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:05 pm

OK, a VERY heated debate. If you feel like you can't handle this debate, do not come here. Do not come rant your opinion and leave. Be mature. Have manners. Let's start. :mrgreen:

My opinion: I believe it should be allowed. I believe that the fetus is not yet a human. If the women was raped, she or the baby are going to die, or a case of incest occurred, then an abortion should be the first thing to happen. The thing that gets heated is the choice of just wanting to have an abortion. I believe that should also be allowed. I wouldn't want a child to grow up in an unfit home. No, adoption does not always work. There are already too many orphans already. Adopt them first, then I might change my mind. Another one of my reasons is that the planet is overpopulated and abortion will never stop. Never. And my last reason is that it is none of my business. I have no power in me to tell a women what she can and cannot do with her own body.

Edit: Please state if you are for making it illegal or keeping it legal.
Last edited by #1SailorMoonFan on Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Sylphiel » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:13 pm

...oh boy. This could get really ugly really fast.

Personally, I'm against it. And I don't really feel like going into it any more than that right now. Maybe some other time, but I've debated this issue with others before and I'm just not feelin' it right now.

I'm one of the probably few people who's extremely pro-gay rights and extremely anti-abortion. But I'm a libertarian so my values don't really match a Republican/Democrat standpoint.
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Post by Starscream » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:24 pm

<MOD MODE>

Ahem.

Let's get the obvious out of the way very quickly: Maintain all opinions and discussions in a civil and organized tone. Do not post in this thread unless you are capable of giving your opinion in a rational and intelligent manner. If people on EITHER side get out of hand, I will lock this topic immediately. This is a place to discuss your VIEWS on the subject matter, not force them upon others through hateful speech and personal attacks. I have no problem with these views being backed up by stories of personal experience, but I do not want to see an ideological or religious flame war brew out of this.

</MOD MODE>

Having said that, I am strongly pro-life, to the extent that I cannot, under any circumstance, agree with the taking of a fetus' life unless a) the mother was raped, or b) the mother's life is at risk if she continues to carry the pregnancy to term. In my opinion, the fetus is a life from the moment of conception, reacting to painful and pleasant stimuli in much the same way a month-old child or young animal does. Yes, part of this is my Catholic upbringing, but apart from my religion, I also feel that taking a life - any life - unless in self defense is wrong. True, the couple might not be ready to have a child, but unfortunately, a pregnancy is part of the risk of having sex, protected or otherwise (that's why the labels indicate the odds of pregnacny protection to be less than 100%). Feel free to label me puritan or "not with the times", but if a couple is not ready to have a child, they should be thinking twice about copulating in the first place.

Nevertheless, I am aware of the psychological ramifications of actually going through with an abortion; it's not an easy decision to make, even if it is one of which I highly disapprove. If someone DOES decide that, due to whatever circumstances, they feel this is the right choice for them, I would not do anything to physically stop them; if there is one thing I cannot tolerate more than the practice of abortion, it is the horrid tactics that people who walk in front of clinics perform whenever anyone approaches the building. The poor couple who is about to terminate that life has already been through a lot (presumably) to come to that decision, and they do not need the preachings of "holier-than-thou" individuals bearing down upon them as they walk into the clinic. Again, while I REALLY wish that couple would reconsider their decision, any further psychological trauma these protesters could inflict would just add hypocritical insult to injury.
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Post by Sailorasteroid » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:10 pm

I'm of the "safe, legal, and rare" thinking. In the first place, we should be working to make effective and affordable birth control, so that the matter doesn't come up as much. (Not through health-care subsidy, but through purchased insurance)

I can understand the mindset of not liking abortions if you believe that the fetus has a soul or because it feels pain or some reason that makes it alive. However, this point is a matter of both facts and values, and it's hard to be 100% certain on either. And for me, I can't see it as anything other than biological mass.

So, yes, I think if your mind is made up, you should be able to say that you don't want to have the baby and get it aborted. However, I think it's also a right of groups like Operation Rescue to argue, preach, cajole, and basically do anything short of physical force to stop it, if they feel it's a moral violation.

That being said, I think that stance is a major millstone around the neck of the right-wing and religious political factions. While I take at face value the position that their anti-abortion stance is based on morality, too often it comes off as being anti-sex. If you're pregnant and don't want to be, don't want to have to go through the pain, don't want to spend the money on raising the kid, too bad. You should have been abstinent. I believe that sex is a right between consenting adults, and given the state of our technology, sex without pregnancy is a right as well.
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Post by Starscream » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:37 pm

Sailorasteroid wrote:I'm of the "safe, legal, and rare" thinking. In the first place, we should be working to make effective and affordable birth control, so that the matter doesn't come up as much. (Not through health-care subsidy, but through purchased insurance)
Absolutely 100% behind you on this. Of course, this gets into the issue of affordable healthcare in the US, which is another HUGE can of worms :/
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Post by Tiff » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:11 pm

I'm basically with Starscream here. I don't think abortion shoudl be used:
Starscream wrote: unless a) the mother was raped, or b) the mother's life is at risk if she continues to carry the pregnancy to term.
I would also add incest in there, but that would fall under the category of rape, too.

Not for religious reasons. But becuase I think abortion is WAY too overused, especially in the younger, unmarried female population. There are way too many girls who get knocked up, and then instantly jump to an abortion for a simple fix-it, not realizing the physical and psychological ramifications (as Starscream mentioned) that go with it. And then they get pregnant again, and again, and it just repeats itself.

And I honestly don't see how there isn't affordable birth control. Planned Parenthood gives away oral contraceptives for free. And then go to the damn 7-11 and buy some fucking condoms. It's not that hard. You don't like how condoms don't feel as good? Tough shit. Don't have sex, then.

And I don't buy the "it's the woman's boooody so nobody can tell her what to doooo" bit for one second. What about the father? The last time I checked, that baby belonged to the father, too. You know, the whole egg and sperm thing.

I have a male friend who found out his girlfriend was pregnant AFTER she had gotten an abortion without telling him. He was utterly devastated. He wanted that baby, and couldn't understand how she could do such a thing without consulting him.

It isn't her body she's choosing to destroy and do what she wants with. It's hers AND HER BOYFRIEND/HUSBAND/SEX PARTNER'S BABY'S.

So what..just becuase it's the woman's body, that gives her the complete right to kill fetus after fetus simply becuase "it's her body"? I can maybe forgive one careless, teenage mistake. But three in a row? No. Stop. Having. Sex.

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Post by #1SailorMoonFan » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:14 pm

No. Stop. Having. Sex.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that will never happen!
And what about over population??? Looks like I'm the only pro-choice person here...

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Post by yoshmaster5 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:25 pm

My thoughts on this are really fairly short and to the point...

Personally, I don't htink Abortion should be outlawed. quite the opposite, it goes back tot he 'If you're not allowed to do it, you'll want to more' human thought process. *shrugs* It happened in the 70's and 60's. I agree with tiff, if you're irresponsible, and you get abortion after abortion then you shouldn't be allowed one. if you abuse your rights, you should have them removed.

I believe it should stay legal, for reasons already stated. if you were raped, if giving birth would kill you, or maybe even if it's Incest or something like that, you should be allowed to have an abortion. as simple as that.
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Post by peachvampiress » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:25 pm

I've actually heard that the death population is higher then the birth population right now.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:47 pm

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
No. Stop. Having. Sex.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that will never happen!
And what about over population??? Looks like I'm the only pro-choice person here...
-_- Dude, I'm not saying every person should stop having sex. I'm saying that it would be ideal if irresponsible, idiotic people would quit having unprotected, unresponsible sex. Of COURSE it'll never stop happening. It is my OPINION that it should, though.

And what ABOUT overpopulation? Well, let's just do what they do in China then! Let's abort and murder every multiple birth! Let's limit every person to just one child, and so what if a responsible, financially-able couple wants to reproduce. Let's just kill their child off, anyway. Hey, it worked in China, right?

We aren't starving for space right now. America is doing just fine.

And stop seeing things in black and white. Pro-choice and Pro-life aren't as black and white as they seem. Even Starscream isn't completely pro-life, becuase if he was, he wouldn't think abortion was okay in ANY circumstance. He listed two circumstances where abortion may have to be a solution. So no, you're NOT the only "pro-choicer" here. I never said I think abortion shoudl be illegal. I said that it's overused.

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Post by Tempest » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:49 pm

I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life.

My philosophy is: What other people do is none of my business. Personally I don't think I'll ever have an abortion unless it's for extreme mesures, but it's not for me to impose my personal choices on other people. That's wrong. If someone/a couple thinks an abortion is what they have to do, then it's their choice.

If some woman down the street gets an abortion then it's none of my business. It's no one's business but her's and, in most cases, the boyfriend/husband's. If they personally don't come up to YOU and ask YOU what to do then stay out of it. The world would be a much better place if people would stay out of other people's affairs once in a while.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:53 pm

Tempest wrote:I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life.

My philosophy is: What other people do is none of my business. Personally I don't think I'll ever have an abortion unless it's for extreme mesures, but it's not for me to impose my personal choices on other people. That's wrong. If someone/a couple thinks an abortion is what they have to do, then it's their choice.

If some woman down the street gets an abortion then it's none of my business. It's no one business but her's and, in some cases, the /boyfriend/husband's. If they personally don't come up to you and ask YOU what to do then stay out of it. The would be a much better place if people would stay out of other people's affairs once in a while.
Yep. I'm pretty much with you here. I mean..in the end, it's not my fucking choice if someone else wants to have one. I myself could never do it. Even if i got raped. I just couldn't. But that doesn't mean another rape victim is going to be judged by me for doing so. *shrugs* I live my own life.

This is part of the reason why I usually don't get involved in these kinds of debates. I guses this time I didn't know better. XD

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Post by Alexclow345 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:00 pm

Why is there a discussion about killing babies. :(

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Post by yoshmaster5 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:01 pm

As Tiffu said... there really is no... complete... side for Pro-life/Pro-choice. The fact is... Many people in the US stand int he middle-groudn. they have beliefs on both sides... I do. I think if people abuse it, then they should stop. but, it should be allowed for others. if it was an accident, then you cna abort, IMO. The sad thing is, in politics, which 'defines' all the beliefs, if you try to stay in the middle, you get demolished. THis, is what needs to change in the american pysche. However, it is unlikely to happen soon. Only over time, could this possibly change.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:03 pm

Alexclow345 wrote:Why is there a discussion about killing babies. :(
If you're not going to contribute with an intelligent, debating reply, then don't reply at all, please. This is meant to be an intelligent debate, and if you cannot handle the material, then don't bother to read it.

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Post by Butterscotch » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:28 pm

I don't approve of abortion as birth control. There are so many other types of birth control and contraceptives available, that there really isn't any reason to have an un-wanted baby.

I do approve of abortion in cases of rape, incest, if the mother's life is in danger. But getting your-self knocked up, and getting an abortion is just irresponsible.

That said, I don't want abortions to be outlawed. The fact is, that women who want abortions will get them, even if that means they have to have it done in less than safe conditions. As long as abortions are legal, women who want/need them can at least have them done properly.

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Post by AnimeGuru0 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:32 am

#1SailorMoonFan wrote:
No. Stop. Having. Sex.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that will never happen!
And what about over population??? Looks like I'm the only pro-choice person here...
I'm sorry, but what is wrong with sexual abstinence? Believe it or not, it's actually the most effective form of birth control, and sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of people are abstinent.

And overpopulation??? *shakes head* I can probably name 25 other alternatives off the top of my head to control a supposed and debatable "overpopulation" problem before I even get to words that SOUND like abortion.

The bottom line is, people don't use abortion to "control population", they have abortions, for the most part, because they don't want to have a child at that particular point in their life.

I'm with Tiff, if you're not ready to have a child, then you need to SERIOUSLY consider if you're ready to become sexually active. Sexual activity has the inherit side effect of pregnancy. It just comes with the territory. If that's a risk you're willing to take, then fine, but I don't feel like the child should be held responsible for a couple's decision to be sexually active. I think there's other alternatives than abortion if you don't want a child. Adoption, anyone?

Anyways, if you haven't already seen, I'm definately pro-life. I don't like the idea of abortion as a birth control. However, in cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is at risk, I think it is ok.

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Post by Tiff » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:23 pm

So I think we're all pretty much int he same place. Most of us don't approve of Abortion when it's used as a method of birthcontrol, but we understand its use when there is rape, incest, or potential danger to the mother's life involved.

Honestly, I thinkt hat's how most people in general feel about it.

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Post by NameGoesHere » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:28 pm

I am personally against it, but I would never step in and try to forcibly stop someone from having an abortion. Unless they were a close friend and I believed with all my mind and soul that she was walking into it without thought. I think most people would encourage their friends to think hard before jumping into any other life-changing decision, and I see no difference here.

There are cases of incest, rape, and health risks, in which I think abortion to be a viable solution. As long as the decisions are not made lightly.

With sex comes a heavy personal responsibility. If you want to be purely clinical about it, the only purpose for sex is reproduction. The fact that it feels good is just a side effect of our fancy little system of nerve endings. When you start having sex you suddenly become responsible for your health, your partner's health, and any possible offspring that may arise from the act. With the rampant spread of sexually transmitted diseases and the risk of pregnancy, there really is very little excuse for having unprotected sex unless you are prepared for the possibility of a child.

I suppose that is just my roundabout way of saying that abortion as a form of birth control is highly irresponsible. Don't want to use protection? Don't want a baby? Keep your pants up and your skirts down. Abstinence is your friend.

I don't think I understand the overpopulation perspective. I'm not sure there are many women who walk into an abortion clinic thinking "gee, I've seen too many kids running around the neighborhood, so to help curb overpopulation, I'll have an abortion."

And not to sound like a morbid freak or anything, but there are much more efficient methods of population control than a procedure like abortion. Surprisingly enough, I can think of a few that don't involve death.
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Post by Tiff » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:38 pm

Bravo, NameGoesHere. =D

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