My opinion on Sailor Uranus and Neptune's attitudes in SMS

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My opinion on Sailor Uranus and Neptune's attitudes in SMS

Post by *Eternal Moon* » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:25 am

I recently started rewatching the Sailor Moon S season (for the first time subtitled) and my whole attitude towards how Haruka and Michiru treated the inners as well as how they approached their mission has changed. I used to think that Haruka and Michiru were just being mean but can you really blame them for being so cold? Sure, they could always make an effort to be nicer (which would have been good) but I think they felt responsible for the Death Busters making it to Earth and they wanted to be the ones responsible for defeating them. How would you feel if you were the outer senshi (with stronger powers than the inners) and an enemy who escaped from you the first time is now within your grasp but you have someone (the inner senshi) standing in your way? Of course you might be a little bitter towards them. Plus, it's not like the inner senshi and the outer senshi have been fighting side by side enough to the point where the outers felt like they could give all of their trust in Sailor Moon and her group to defeat the enemy. Instead of relying on others to do the job they were given, the outers probably felt embarassed about not defeating them the first time and would do anything not to let that happen a second time, even if it mean't making sacrifices to do so. Especially with the pride they have in themselves (especially Uranus). Also, I don't blame the outers for not wanting to work with the inners. Not only were they not used to fighting together, but their goals (well, how they wanted to accomplish their goals) were too different to be able to work in harmony. As we know, Sailor Uranus and Sailor Moon are both headstrong leaders who have two contradicting ideas of how to defeat enemies and will not sway a different way to accomplish the goal (Sailor Moon will never want to sacrifice someone and Sailor Uranus will never take the risks Sailor Moon does in order to save someone else while possibly endangering the rest of the world). That would cause a lot of headbutting that Sailor Uranus knew would happen if they did try to work together as a full team on this mission. But anyways, I know a lot of you probably think I'm wrong for feeling this way but I stick by my opinion. I'm NOT saying that I condone some of the outers actions but I can understand where they're coming from and I can respect that. People don't act a certain way just to be that way, there are reasons behind people's behaviors and actions, which is what I'm trying to explain in this post about the outer senshi.
Last edited by *Eternal Moon* on Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jeff » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:49 am

The Outers didn't fail at beating the enemy... Uranus and Neptune hadn't awakened yet. They only realized their senshi powers after the enemy had already nested on Earth. They felt responsible for this and like it was their "fault" but they couldn't have done anything differently.

I don't know what Pluto's deal was.

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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:20 pm

Jeff wrote:The Outers didn't fail at beating the enemy... Uranus and Neptune hadn't awakened yet. They only realized their senshi powers after the enemy had already nested on Earth. They felt responsible for this and like it was their "fault" but they couldn't have done anything differently.

I don't know what Pluto's deal was.
Their job was to protect the Silver Millenium from enemies who intruded from the outside solar system. They said the intrusion of the enemy on Earth was their mistake because they had overlooked them so therefore, they feel that it was their fault. By overlooking them, they were not able to defeat them in their solar system which is why they think they are responsible for it being on Earth now. If they had recognized the enemy and defeated it back then, then it wouldn't have nested on Earth. That's why they were awakened for the S season and not beforehand. The Death Busters are an enemy from their past that was outside of the solar system where they fought enemies who were trying to intrude and unfortunately, these bad guys got by unnoticed.

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Post by jupiter23 » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:34 pm

Jeff wrote:I don't know what Pluto's deal was.
That being said, couldn't we assume that Pluto was at her post guarding the time gate where she belonged? And if Pluto's post is to guard the time gate, and Saturn's job was pretty much to stay asleep until absolutely needed, then that would leave Uranus and Neptune to guard the Solar System from outside intrusions. So if they felt bad about letting an enemy by when they shouldn't have, it would be completely understandable. Then again, they didn't awaken until the enemy was already on Earth, like you said. That was almost exactly what happened with Sailor Moon and her group. They weren't awakened either until Beryl made her move and sent Jadeite out. So I'm in agreement with Jeff-san. Whether they had awakened before or after the enemy got there was irrelevant. Nothing could have been done differently.
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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:14 pm

I'm not referring to when the Death Busters had already settled on Earth. I'm talking about when it was the Silver Millenium time period and they were in the outer solar system where Uranus and Neptune tried to prevent enemies from entering the inner solar system but the Death Busters were overlooked. If they weren't overlooked, they could have been defeated then and there in the outer solar system. The whole reason that they feel responsible is because it WAS preventable. If they would have noticed them and not overlooked the Death Busters back in the Silver Millenium in the first place, then the Death Busters wouldn't have been able to settle on Earth however many trillion years later because they would/could have been destroyed. Obviously, no one's perfect and two or three people can't possibly be able to make sure every single little villain doesn't make it outside of their outer solar system. But they felt bad because the Death Busters could have been obliterated back in the Silver Millenium if they had noticed them.

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Post by Jeff » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:22 pm

Um, when was it ever said that the Death Busters were an "old enemy" that tried to invade during the time of the Silver Millenium kingdom? Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto guarded the solar system in the distant past. They somehow died (perhaps in the battle against Earth and Metallia), and the Death Busters nested on Earth approximately three years before they were re-awakened. NOT during the distant past. This is why they feel responsible. There is no evidence that the Death Busters were some old nemesis. If that were true, it would make no sense for Uranus and Neptune to be so shocked about the true nature of the enemy.

This is all evidence from the anime only. An even stronger case could be made using manga evidence.

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Post by jupiter23 » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:34 pm

They were a fairly new threat in the manga as well. When Uranus and Neptune come into the story in the manga, they have already been investigating the Deathbusters and Mugen Academy. It just wasn't an issue for the rest of the Sailor Senshi until Chibi-Usa met Hotaru at the beginning of the story arc. So that sense of guilt from Uranus and Neptune wasn't lost between the manga and anime.

Granted, it's also been awhile since I've read the manga, so someone else would have to argue this point further.
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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:42 pm

I'm going by the information from the epsiode "A House Full of Evil Presence! The Secret of the Beautiful Girl Hotaru".

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Post by Jeff » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:31 pm

*Eternal Moon* wrote:I'm going by the information from the epsiode "A House Full of Evil Presence! The Secret of the Beautiful Girl Hotaru".
Okay, well could you tell us what information you are using? It is clearly shown in a later episode exactly how the Death Busters came to Earth, and we are given a specific timeframe. There is nothing in the episode you mentioned that indicates they encountered the Death Busters in the past.

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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:37 pm

I didn't say they encountered them. I said they were overlooked in both my second and third post. The only reason I said the Death Busters intrusion to Earth could have been prevented was if they weren't overlooked and Uranus and Neptune would have seen them and defeated them when they were in the outer solar system. That's all I've been trying to say throughout this whole post. But either way, this is not the subject of this post and we're going off topic. This post is solely about Haruka and Michiru's attitude and my attempt to explain why they acted the way they did so that is all I will speak about from this point on.

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Post by Tiff » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:18 pm

*Eternal Moon* wrote: But either way, this is not the subject of this post and we're going off topic. This post is solely about Haruka and Michiru's attitude and my attempt to explain why they acted the way they did so that is all I will speak about from this point on.
ADMIN MODE:

But the information you're presenting directly relates to the topic of your thread. So if you can't back yourself up accurately, then don't bother to continue the argument. Jeff is trying to discuss the issues you've presented with you. Either discuss them, back yourself up, or don't bother participating.

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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:08 pm

Tiff wrote:
*Eternal Moon* wrote: But either way, this is not the subject of this post and we're going off topic. This post is solely about Haruka and Michiru's attitude and my attempt to explain why they acted the way they did so that is all I will speak about from this point on.
ADMIN MODE:

But the information you're presenting directly relates to the topic of your thread. So if you can't back yourself up accurately, then don't bother to continue the argument. Jeff is trying to discuss the issues you've presented with you. Either discuss them, back yourself up, or don't bother participating.
Don't bother participating in my own post? That's pretty harsh. I already stated where I got my information from in my 4th post. I got it from that episode where Mamoru was speaking with the outers. They DID say the Death Busters got overlooked and that's where I got some of the information from in my second post which I said was in the episode. I copied some of that right from the subtitles off my DVD. I stated my information and where I got it from so how is that not backing myself up?

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Post by Jeff » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:04 pm

And quote:
*Eternal Moon* wrote:I'm not referring to when the Death Busters had already settled on Earth. I'm talking about when it was the Silver Millenium time period and they were in the outer solar system where Uranus and Neptune tried to prevent enemies from entering the inner solar system but the Death Busters were overlooked. If they weren't overlooked, they could have been defeated then and there in the outer solar system. The whole reason that they feel responsible is because it WAS preventable. If they would have noticed them and not overlooked the Death Busters back in the Silver Millenium in the first place, then the Death Busters wouldn't have been able to settle on Earth however many trillion years later because they would/could have been destroyed. Obviously, no one's perfect and two or three people can't possibly be able to make sure every single little villain doesn't make it outside of their outer solar system. But they felt bad because the Death Busters could have been obliterated back in the Silver Millenium if they had noticed them.
This is the statement I was asking you to back up. Not that they had been "overlooked" but that they were from the past. They're not. They came to Earth during the fire that initially killed Hotaru. I wasn't trying to rub this in your face or anything but you kept evading me and saying that you were right. I have no problem with differing viewpoints about the show's plot but you can't say that it's one way when it is clearly shown to be another.

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Post by *Eternal Moon* » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:01 pm

According to the episode, Pluto said "From the distant past, our duty has been to protect the Silver Millenium from enemies who intrude from outside the solar system. Uranus then went on to say "But when we awakened in this age the enemy had already nested deep down on this Earth." Neptune said "We had overlooked it. The intrusion of the enemy this time is our mistake."

Why would they think it was their mistake if they weren't awakened yet? They had to have felt that they could have prevented it in some way in order to feel like they made a mistake. The only times they could have had a chance to prevent it would have been in the Silver Millenium or when the enemy was on Earth. Obviously, if the enemy was already on Earth they couldn't have stopped it so I think it means that they were referring to the Silver Milenium time period. If that isn't the case, than when else could they have "overlooked" it? My interpretation of these statements made was that the Death Busters (I'm not saying they were really a threat at the time) existed in the Silver Millenium time period a.k.a the distant past (which is why I think Pluto made her statement about it besides just to giving Mamoru background information) but didn't reach the Earth until 3 years before the awakening of Uranus and Neptune.

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Post by Tempest » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:35 am

*Eternal Moon* wrote:According to the episode, Pluto said "From the distant past, our duty has been to protect the Silver Millenium from enemies who intrude from outside the solar system. Uranus then went on to say "But when we awakened in this age the enemy had already nested deep down on this Earth." Neptune said "We had overlooked it. The intrusion of the enemy this time is our mistake."

Why would they think it was their mistake if they weren't awakened yet? They had to have felt that they could have prevented it in some way in order to feel like they made a mistake. The only times they could have had a chance to prevent it would have been in the Silver Millenium or when the enemy was on Earth. Obviously, if the enemy was already on Earth they couldn't have stopped it so I think it means that they were referring to the Silver Milenium time period. If that isn't the case, than when else could they have "overlooked" it? My interpretation of these statements made was that the Death Busters (I'm not saying they were really a threat at the time) existed in the Silver Millenium time period a.k.a the distant past (which is why I think Pluto made her statement about it besides just to giving Mamoru background information) but didn't reach the Earth until 3 years before the awakening of Uranus and Neptune.

My interpretation: The new threat slipped by them because, for whatever reason, they haven't been awakened early enough in the present time to stop them. Not because they failed their duties in the past. They feel guilty because they didn't fulfill the responsiblities assigned to them ages ago.
The only way I can think to word this is, "a warrior's way of thinking". To complete the the duties assigned to them. They feel responsible because they failed their duties in the present time by not being aware of the enemy's existence on Earth. Something that the apparently never let happened in the past. With that way of thinking, you'll feel responsible for failing no matter how out of your control it was.
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Post by Tiff » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:09 am

*Eternal Moon* wrote:
Don't bother participating in my own post? That's pretty harsh.
Look, My point is this: If you cannot back up your own "facts", or if you want to dodge the things that people challenge you with, then don't bother participating. If you are going to bring up an argumentative and debating thread, then expect people to argue back with you. That's the whole point.

In short, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Don't bother replying, just keep the discussion going if that's what you want.

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Post by Jeff » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:27 pm

Tempest wrote:
*Eternal Moon* wrote:According to the episode, Pluto said "From the distant past, our duty has been to protect the Silver Millenium from enemies who intrude from outside the solar system. Uranus then went on to say "But when we awakened in this age the enemy had already nested deep down on this Earth." Neptune said "We had overlooked it. The intrusion of the enemy this time is our mistake."

Why would they think it was their mistake if they weren't awakened yet? They had to have felt that they could have prevented it in some way in order to feel like they made a mistake. The only times they could have had a chance to prevent it would have been in the Silver Millenium or when the enemy was on Earth. Obviously, if the enemy was already on Earth they couldn't have stopped it so I think it means that they were referring to the Silver Milenium time period. If that isn't the case, than when else could they have "overlooked" it? My interpretation of these statements made was that the Death Busters (I'm not saying they were really a threat at the time) existed in the Silver Millenium time period a.k.a the distant past (which is why I think Pluto made her statement about it besides just to giving Mamoru background information) but didn't reach the Earth until 3 years before the awakening of Uranus and Neptune.

My interpretation: The new threat slipped by them because, for whatever reason, they haven't been awakened early enough in the present time to stop them. Not because they failed their duties in the past. They feel guilty because they didn't fulfill the responsiblities assigned to them ages ago.
The only way I can think to word this is, "a warrior's way of thinking". To complete the the duties assigned to them. They feel responsible because they failed their duties in the present time by not being aware of the enemy's existence on Earth. Something that the apparently never let happened in the past. With that way of thinking, you'll feel responsible for failing no matter how out of your control it was.
Exactly. They are always placing blame on themselves for things that really couldn't be any other way.
My interpretation of these statements made was that the Death Busters (I'm not saying they were really a threat at the time) existed in the Silver Millenium time period a.k.a the distant past (which is why I think Pluto made her statement about it besides just to giving Mamoru background information) but didn't reach the Earth until 3 years before the awakening of Uranus and Neptune.
Um, okay... so what were they doing for those thousands of years? Twiddling their thumbs?

Yet you also said this:
Why would they think it was their mistake if they weren't awakened yet? They had to have felt that they could have prevented it in some way in order to feel like they made a mistake. The only times they could have had a chance to prevent it would have been in the Silver Millenium or when the enemy was on Earth. Obviously, if the enemy was already on Earth they couldn't have stopped it so I think it means that they were referring to the Silver Milenium time period. If that isn't the case, than when else could they have "overlooked" it?
So which is it? Did they invade during the past, before the Outers died, or in the present?

Pluto said they protected against enemies from outside the solar system. She didn't say the Death Busters. She was explaining the past of the Outer Senshi that would establish their role for the rest of the series. Within the canon of the series there are other creatures that exist outside our solar system besides the Death Busters, and they certainly have the ability to be enemies. So I really don't get why you are so convinced.

You quoted this line from Uranus: "But when we awakened in this age the enemy had already nested deep down on this Earth." Neptune said "We had overlooked it. The intrusion of the enemy this time is our mistake." Makes it seem an awful lot like it happened after the Silver Millennium kingdom.

So, to sum it all up for you:

-Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto defended against enemies from outside the solar system during the time of the Moon Kingdom's rule. (explained in the episode you mentioned).
-Uranus and Neptune, at least, probably died with the fall of the kingdom. We don't know if Pluto was ever dormant, but her absence could be explained by her duties as the Guardian of Time.
-The Death Busters came to Earth when Uranus and Neptune were dormant (for proof, see the quote you provided).
-The Death Busters came to Earth approximately three years before the events of Sailor Moon S (during the fire that killed Hotaru).

Since we are kind of all over the place with this debate, I would like to ask you to clarify the chronology you believe is the correct one in a format similar to what I just provided. Because at this point I am not sure what you believe, except that the Outers fought the Death Busters in the past.

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Post by Dr Tomoe » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:29 am

I think they didn't have a choice. Look, remember the "Usagi's in trouble" episode? The scene where these two are waiting for the talisman, their hearts overflooded because of the sadity and anger? And remember what Haruka/Uranus said to Usagi/SM in the cave, while Michiro/Neptune was taken hostage? "We don't want victims. But when you have to sacrifice 3 (!) people to save the whole world (!), what will you do???" They didn't have choice since they simply didn't know there was an alternate way - that they find talismans and their owners still survive. I think only Pluto did.

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