Usagi vs. Mary-Sue

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Usagi vs. Mary-Sue

Post by Cardcaptor Takato » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:09 am

We all know Usagi's personality. She's very clumsy, is always late to school, doesn't like to study, and just likes to have fun. But despite this, Usagi ends up being a superhero, gets the perfect boyfriend, becomes the ruler of the earth, is the strongest Sailor Senshi ever, and almost everyone loves her. Plus, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Takeuchi-san based Usagi's character on herself (please correct me if I'm wrong about that). If that isn't a Mary-Sue, then I don't know what is. Yet while most people seem to be annoyed by Mary-Sue characters in fanfics, almost everyone seems to like Usagi, but why is that? Do you think Usagi is a Mary-Sue character? If so, what makes her so different from other Mary-Sues so that just about everyone likes her?
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Post by Rainbow » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:47 am

Personally, because of her personality flaws, I would consider Usagi to only be a semi-Mary Sue. But that's mainly because my definition of a Mary-Sue is a character who has a perfect personality as well as perfect abilities in other areas.
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Post by Sailorasteroid » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:01 pm

See, I've always liked Mary-Sues, and it's possible to have a perfect character without them being so irritating that you can't like them. Usagi gets you on her side and you tolerate her, or she irks you with her crybaby nature and you watch for the other senshi.
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Post by KoiNoVash » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:04 pm

While Usagi is your stereotypical character, I never thought of her as a Mary Sue. People like her because she seems more average and easy to relate to. People hate Mary Sue fanfics because it just seems like the author is writing themself into a story, which in my experience turns out to be very bad. Usually, if the author is female, all the male characters end up falling in love with her and she saves the day from some sort of made-up bad guy because she is all powerful or something. Usagi, however, only has three guys in the anime that fall for her and usually relies on her friends to help her out.

Seriously, I would consider Miaka from Fushigi Yuugi or the purple-haired girl from the Utena dating sim to be more Mary Sue than Usagi.
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Post by Tiff » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:12 pm

Plus, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Takeuchi-san based Usagi's character on herself (please correct me if I'm wrong about that). If that isn't a Mary-Sue, then I don't know what is.
BASING a character a bit on yourself isn't what makes a Mary Sue. What makes a Mary Sue is actually PUTTING YOURSELF in the story. If Naoko had made the main charater HERSELF, that would have been a Mary Sue. You have the conception of what Mary Sue is wrong.

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Post by Rainbow » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:40 pm

I would agree, Tiff. Because if the former was true, then many popular authors would be hated for making "Mary-Sues" because a lot of writers base characters off of themselves, or at least certain traits.
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Post by NameGoesHere » Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:45 pm

Basing a character on yourself is not a bad thing. All of my characters share some trait with me, even the villains. If I give them one, even minor quality that I can identify with, then they seem a little more real. I'm pretty sure all writers base some of their characters on themselves in one way or another. It does not always end up as a Mary Sue situation.

I think KoiNoVash put it well. Usagi is not completely perfect, she has faults and insecurities. While she always wins (big battle wise), she relies heavily on the help of her friends to get her there. While she has great power, she often doesn't have all the confidence or skill she needs to make it to the end by herself.
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Post by Vesta » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:43 am

I'm surprised that people always call Usagi a Mary-Sue when you have Michiru as THE Mary-Sue standing right there. Takeuchi said once that Michiru is the exact opposite of Usagi, Usagi having every possible flaw there is, but Michiru being absolutely perfect. If anyone is a Mary-Sue, than it's Michiru. She has the lover, the money, the talent, the beauty, the poise, the elgance, the fighting skills. How much more Mary-Sue can you get?

Yes, Usagi does seem to get off a little easy, but she IS the main charcacter. There has to be someone like that there. Also, she's practically the first female character in Bishoujo anime to be portrayed as somewhat flawed.

BTW, I am not bashing Michiru.I do like her. I'm just proving a point.

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Post by Tiff » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:58 am

Vesta wrote:I'm surprised that people always call Usagi a Mary-Sue when you have Michiru as THE Mary-Sue standing right there. Takeuchi said once that Michiru is the exact opposite of Usagi, Usagi having every possible flaw there is, but Michiru being absolutely perfect. If anyone is a Mary-Sue, than it's Michiru. She has the lover, the money, the talent, the beauty, the poise, the elgance, the fighting skills. How much more Mary-Sue can you get?
You guys are not understanding completely what a Mary Sue is. A Mary Sue is when a writer/author PUTS HIM/HERSELF into a story, and then makes HIM/HERSELF perfect. Takeuchi herself has said that Michiru is nothing like herself; therefore, she's NOT a Mary Sue. And Usagi isn't a Mary Sue becuase she's only BASED a bit on Takeuchi's personality, and Usagi is far from perfect.

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Post by Sailorasteroid » Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:24 am

Wikipedia:Mary Sue

The Official Mary Sue Society Avatar Appreciation Site The "what is" link is right on top. Don't know how "official" this is, but it's the first site that came up on Google.

Both seem to say that an MS can be an original character, not just the author him/herself.
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Post by Tiff » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:40 am

Yes, but focuse ON THE FOLLOWING:
fictional character who is an idealized stand-in for the author and/or reader, or for a story with such a character. A Mary Sue goes beyond a conventional author surrogate. The term originates in fan fiction but is spreading into general use.
This automatically shows that Michiru couldn't be a Mary Sue, as Naoko has stated Michiru is the FURTHEST from her own personality. Therefore, it's pretty obvious she didn't put in Michiru as a stand-in for herself. As stated earlier, it was stated by Naoko that Usagi was the closest thing to herself, and we all know Usagi isn't idealized much. She has many obvious flaws.

You mis-read the bit about original characters.
Mary Sues are usually original to the author, but some (canon Sues) are created by adapting pre-existing characters. Conversely, original characters, or even self-insertion characters, are not necessarily Mary Sues
It's stating that a Sue can either be made-up by the author, meaning it's the author's persona but with a different name, past, etc...OR it can be a pre-existing char USED IN FAN-FICS. Obviously, since this ISN'T a fanfic, and Naoko's own work, it would HAVE to be an original character that SHE created. There's no other option. So your point isp retty moot. Nobody denied that the chars mentioned weren't original. I stated that a Mary Sue was when the author put him/herself into the story...AKA "AN IDEALIZED STAND-IN OF THE AUTHOR", and then CHANGED themselves to make themselves perfect. So obviously the character would have to be changed so that it's no longer "Naoko".

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Post by Neo Dead Moon » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:35 pm

Whatever the case, Tiff-san, I find Mary Sues to be an annoyance when it comes to reading fanfiction with them in it. It's why I stopped reading fanfiction in the first place; everything from Harry Potter to Sailor Moon to even Disney works were populated with them. @[email protected]

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Post by Em » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:44 pm

I've never really seen any of the sailor moon chracters as mary-Sue's really not even Usagi they just seem to un Mary Sue to meand by that I mean they all ahve thier own little flaws.

As for Sailor Moon Mary Sue/marty-Stu fanfiction's if somone can pull a good fanfiction like that then I might just read it but other then that there's so many it's sacry and nearly all of them get Usagi/Sernea to be hated get hurt in some way etc same sotry new chracter
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Post by Vagabond » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:13 am

Is it possible for there to be a Mary Sue in the canon material? Usually there is a little more leniency with how the original authors create their characters. I always had the impression that a Mary Sue was annoying not because the fan fiction author stuck herself into the story (which isn't too rare in literature) but because of the character's overperfection.

I don't know if Usagi counts as a Mary Sue based on the definition by Wikipedia, since they also say how physically weak, innocent, and naive female leads like Aeris from FF7 and Collete Brunel in Tales of Symphonia are labeled as Mary Sues. Usagi does kind of fit into that mold. However, I'm pretty sure that the Sailoruranus, Sailorneptune, and the Starlights have really heavy shades of Mary Sueism. Except for the part of being a substitute for the author, they seem to fit the mold. All of them are beautiful, rich, popular, famous, artistically talented, and have the original main characters (the original 5 senshi) defer or obsess about them.
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Post by Rainbow » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:47 am

Yes, but didn't you say "overperfection?" The Outers and Starlights are balanced by their personality flaws, in my opinion. Especially since neither group wants to get along with the Inners, at least at first. (nor with each other even more)
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